Sheer codec ? (and RA / RC codec options)

[David Nardini]

Anybody on this forum have experience of this codec :

https://www.bitjazz.com/en/shop/sheervideo/

"RGB ↔ Y'CbCr Lossless Interconversion ... therefore can edit footage with RGB tools, or with Y'CbCr tools, without having to worry about generational loss or even first-generation loss" ... sounds too good to be true !

I've tried their most recent download and with QT 7.5.5 and Shake 4.1 I do not get any MOV created, which ever option I choose, RBG or YUV ?

Additionally, why is it that for both RedAlert and RedCine the QT codec options are so limited ? Added codecs (microcosm, sheer) and some of the standard ones (animation, jpeg2000, png) just do not appear ? WHY WHY WHY ??? :angry01:

Cheers

 

[Gunleik Groven]

As to Sheer - I have heard only good things, but not tested it. Sounds a bit like Cineform.

As to Shake - QT output of anything above 8 bits is not working, you have to file based (dpx/exr/tiff/tga)

As to the limited codec option... That's a biggie. There must be a policy reasoning behind this, as DNxHD has been enabled, while AJA/Cineform is not... It used to be there, so it's not like it is impossible.

 

[David Nardini]

As to Sheer - I have heard only good things, but not tested it. Sounds a bit like Cineform.

As to Shake - QT output of anything above 8 bits is not working, you have to file based (dpx/exr/tiff/tga)

As to the limited codec option... That's a biggie. There must be a policy reasoning behind this, as DNxHD has been enabled, while AJA/Cineform is not... It used to be there, so it's not like it is impossible.

Shake : did some tests recently and I did find one codec that took 16 bit pipeline and rendered out a viewable mov file ! cannot remember need to revisit (was it animation ?). Even if you output to 8 bit there are some quite shocking differences between codecs on just a simple B&W ramp.

I tried Cineform, but all I get is black. I take it it's early days on Macs for them (PC heritage ?) so I gave up.

AJA and Blackmagic do appear on RA (last time I looked). I've stopped using RC, but I'm pretty sure AJA/Blackmagic did not appear. Basically the list of codecs on RA is > than what I saw in RC.

It just seems pants that ones has to effectively use DPX as an intermediate ... why have all these great lossless codecs? We start with R3D and have to go back to 'fridges' to make best use of the output. Hmmm, bum bum ...

 

[David Taylor]

I tried Cineform, but all I get is black. I take it it's early days on Macs for them (PC heritage ?) so I gave up.

H2opixels, the CineForm workflow on Mac is in pretty good shape now if you use our tools directly to manage conversions. See the first post in this lengthy thread for the overview: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20986.
There are numerous Red-oriented Tech Notes published about how to use the ReMaster conversion tools here: http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/TechNotes.htm#RedCamera.

 

[David Nardini]

H2opixels, the CineForm workflow on Mac is in pretty good shape now if you use our tools directly to manage conversions. See the first post in this lengthy thread for the overview: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20986.
There are numerous Red-oriented Tech Notes published about how to use the ReMaster conversion tools here: http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/TechNotes.htm#RedCamera.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
All I can say is wow ... Cineform => I'm blown away ;-)

If it could take the RSX in/out points it would be very very sweet indeed ! IMHO the dynamic range of the results I'm getting is very good AND usable file sizes AND it works in Shake AND in FCP (allowing high-precision YUV).

Only negative is Shake output is limited to 8bit pipeline ... hell knows why ? Animation is happy with 16bit ??? Then again not a Cineform prob I guess !

So far, very good. Cheers ...

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/featured-news/da-faq/

These guys will be releasing the Microcosm codec as a free product.

It is a lossless video codec which supports 64bit color [48bit + Alpha]

 

[David Nardini]

http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/featured-news/da-faq/

These guys will be releasing the Microcosm codec as a free product.

It is a lossless video codec which supports 64bit color [48bit + Alpha]

RGB only (and they've been working on this a while now with no ETA).
Maybe (and I've asked and they wont say) they will add some form of YUV trickery to make it work inside FCP high-precision YUV.

I love how clean/smooth/accurate Microcosm is, BUT it's not an all round codec (IMHO)

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Can't you transcode using some other program?

 

[David Nardini]

Can't you transcode using some other program?

My biggest bug bear is that RA or RC do not output to codecs of our choice.
Therefore DPX are a natural choice, HOWEVER, the number of renders involved is just too time consuming = TIME IS KILLING ME !!!
The disk space is not such a big deal (DPXs), BUT it is if I want to get back to rework a project ;-(

I'm a one man band ... hence the search for the one codec I can use as a one stop shop lossless intermediate ;-)

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I'm a one man band ... hence the search for the one codec I can use as a one stop shop intermediate ;-)

Good luck.

These Sheer Video people are also preparing some kind of 48bit lossless codec + AVI version, which is pretty exciting for us, PC folk.

That and the native support of RedCode files might just solve the problem, from beginning to end.

 

[David Nardini]

Good luck.

These Sheer Video people are also preparing some kind of 48bit lossless codec + AVI version, which is pretty exciting for us, PC folk.

That and the native support of RedCode files might just solve the problem, from beginning to end.

Agreed about the native support for RedCode ... then again this is taking faaaaaaaaaaaar longer than suggested.

Sheer video : if they answer your emails ... do keep us posted ! I've not managed to get it to work on a Mac Intel and they have not answered my queries.

ReMaster (Cineform) seems to be able to output a very good all-round file (i'm just using their presets and push go !)

Cheers ...

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Ugh, I haven't emailed them yet.

When I get my Scarlet, I'm going to trial\test everything there is and see what works best for me.

48bit color + lossless means = perfect.

I read that 16 bit-per-color is similar to the amount of color nuances in film.

I wonder if the new RED cams will have higher color depth... :sarcasm:

 

[David Nardini]

question for Cineform folk

question for Cineform folk

question for Cineform folk : when in RedAlert, I can drop the ASA and re-render to recover any highlights ... is there a way of doing this with ReMaster ? ie: get a second MOV with the best highlights ? (and ignore the shadow detail)

 

[Uli Plank]

I can only add that Sheer has been the best codec I've found until now doing flawless conversions between RGB and YUV and transport between PC and Mac for a very decent price.
Shake is not developed any further. While that's quite sad, you can still work with DPX.

And be careful with anything RGB in FCP, you'll get nothing more than 8 bit.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

And be careful with anything RGB in FCP, you'll get nothing more than 8 bit.

I think this is also true for Premiere, right? No more than 8-bit per color.

But After Effects supports 16-bit and 32-bit-float sequences... which obviously means that the finishing has to be done in something like AE.

 

[David Newman]

question for Cineform folk : when in RedAlert, I can drop the ASA and re-render to recover any highlights ... is there a way of doing this with ReMaster ? ie: get a second MOV with the best highlights ? (and ignore the shadow detail)

We handle all the high preservation automatically. We find the camera default 320 ASA is effectively applying digital gain, so we develop the base image to 250 ASA and disable white balance gains and DRX processing which both potentially clip or distort highlights. We then transfer the white balance values as active metadata to it can be non-destructively manipulated in post. Basically we do our best to run the R3D SDK as RAW as possible (not turn just for bayer encodes this applies to YUV & RGB modes to) so that all the information from the sensor is preserved. With all the data preserved you are not creating one clip for highlights and one for shadows, everything needed for all post tasks is in one file.

 

[Charles Angus]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
All I can say is wow ... Cineform => I'm blown away ;-)

If it could take the RSX in/out points it would be very very sweet indeed ! IMHO the dynamic range of the results I'm getting is very good AND usable file sizes AND it works in Shake AND in FCP (allowing high-precision YUV).

Only negative is Shake output is limited to 8bit pipeline ... hell knows why ? Animation is happy with 16bit ??? Then again not a Cineform prob I guess !

So far, very good. Cheers ...

This would be because the Animation codec is 8-bit, is it not?

 

[David Nardini]

We handle all the high preservation automatically. We find the camera default 320 ASA is effectively applying digital gain, so we develop the base image to 250 ASA and disable white balance gains and DRX processing which both potentially clip or distort highlights. We then transfer the white balance values as active metadata to it can be non-destructively manipulated in post. Basically we do our best to run the R3D SDK as RAW as possible (not turn just for bayer encodes this applies to YUV & RGB modes to) so that all the information from the sensor is preserved. With all the data preserved you are not creating one clip for highlights and one for shadows, everything needed for all post tasks is in one file.

For most shots I am very impressed by what the 'one file' contains ... what you folk generate automagically is impressive.
I have been playing (I'm still trying to decifer some of your tech words on your site) with lower values of the default Encoder Curves => Log = 90 value ... by lowering this, to say 40 or 30, I seem to gradually get back some of the highlight detail (which I can comp back in as required); I'm not touching the default 'Black Offset' value of 40. I should say that this is the exception rather than the rule but early tests seem to be good for what I need; the default setting are very good for 99% of clips I've thrown to ReMaster.

Interested to see you say 250ASA ... I used to shoot 320 but I'm now using 200 or 250 as a standard (seem end up with less noise). R1 likes MORE not LESS light.

If only you could include some denoise processing in there too (user selectable) :sarcasm:

 

[David Nardini]

I can only add that Sheer has been the best codec I've found until now doing flawless conversions between RGB and YUV and transport between PC and Mac for a very decent price.
Shake is not developed any further. While that's quite sad, you can still work with DPX.

And be careful with anything RGB in FCP, you'll get nothing more than 8 bit.

What do you mean by 'until now' ? I take it this mean you've not found one better :usd:

I'd love to be able to see what it can do ! Sadly, I get nothing from it rendering out of Shake ;-(

What is your work flow starting from R3D files => .... => Sheer encoded file ? I take it you have not done this in one hit (directly via RedAlert or RedCine) ? Unless this is the case, I'll lose interest pretty quickly ... even if it's considerably cheaper than Cineform :waaa:

 

[David Newman]

For most shots I am very impressed by what the 'one file' contains ... what you folk generate automagically is impressive.
I have been playing (I'm still trying to decifer some of your tech words on your site) with lower values of the default Encoder Curves => Log = 90 value ... by lowering this, to say 40 or 30, I seem to gradually get back some of the highlight detail (which I can comp back in as required); I'm not touching the default 'Black Offset' value of 40. I should say that this is the exception rather than the rule but early tests seem to be good for what I need; the default setting are very good for 99% of clips I've thrown to ReMaster.

Interested to see you say 250ASA ... I used to shoot 320 but I'm now using 200 or 250 as a standard (seem end up with less noise). R1 likes MORE not LESS light.

If only you could include some denoise processing in there too (user selectable) :sarcasm:

Altering with the Log curve is not really helping you preserve highlight details, you are just moving the grey point so it seems that way. Remember you are likely displaying this on a 2.2 monitor. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bkp96efBnsQ/SPLNB8KvPXI/AAAAAAAAA-Y/GhXeZp5TiJM/s400/curves.jpg The green curve is Log-90 (nearly the same as RedLog), the cyan curve is 2.2 gamma, so as Log curve is above the 2.2 gamma curve (for all but the darkness shadow detail) the image will appear brighter. But all the curve clips at the some point, so all contain the same dynamic range. The reason to use a log curve over 2.2 gamma (and particularly over linear -- see old post: http://cineform.blogspot.com/2007/09/10-bit-log-vs-12-bit-linear.html) is to do with maintainly visually lossless compression through post production. If you need to extract details from Log 90 highlights, any greater than 8-bit curves filter will do the trick.