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Setting White Balance with Scarlet and Epic Cameras

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Chris Gavrilovic

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Not having any experience with RED cameras, does anyone have any advice on the best way to get a neutral and warm look out of the camera? Does anyone have any WB Cards that work particularly well with the camera? Or any color meters that give accurate calibrations and calculations with the RED.

Thank you
 
Chris Gavrilovic said:
Not having any experience with RED cameras, does anyone have any advice on the best way to get a neutral and warm look out of the camera? Does anyone have any WB Cards that work particularly well with the camera? Or any color meters that give accurate calibrations and calculations with the RED.

Thank you
Click to expand...

With Red, since it's giving you raw, you kind of have to think about it differently. No matter what you adjust in terms of WB, ISO, Tint, etc., inside your camera, you are ALWAYS CAPTURING THE SAME DATA. The WB, ISO, Tint, and more just make up a thin layer of metadata.

When you watch the video through a monitor on set, the camera is taking that Raw data, and running it through that thin layer of metadata.

You can then take that Raw data, and load it into RedCine-X Pro (free software from Red) and tweak that metadata to your hearts content. It's really amazing how much control you have and how much you can affect the look of your footage by adjusting the metadata manually. In RedCine-X Pro, you can quickly switch back and forth between seeing the Raw Data, seeing what was seen on the monitors on set (as in, what the "thin" layer of metadata was showing you), and your one-light or quick grade adjustment in RedCine-X Pro.

You can then save a LUT out of RedCine-X Pro, load that LUT into your camera, and now you have a more robust, better adjusted, "thicker" layer of metadata that the camera uses before passing the image out to a monitor on set.

But, unlike other cameras you've used, you don't hold a white care in front of it, and hit the WB button.

That being said, WB and color balance cards are CRUCIAL. Having shots of them for when you view things through RedCine-X Pro (and futher down the line, true color grading software) will make your life a lot easier.
 
Nick, is it possible to have multiple LUTs on the camera so you could switch between them? Of course this is coming from having used an HVX200a with "Scene Files." I rarely used the feature on the HVX, but then again that camera is not near as robust as the options we'll have with our ordered Scarlet.

By the way, first time post. We've been keeping up with RED for years now, waiting to get in the family. We took a Red One out one day and fell in love.
 
Thanks, Philipe. Nice to see so many knowledgeable people on the forum. I'm sure I'll have more educated questions once we get our Scarlet and go through some tests. :]
 
Thanks for the tips. Im curious, how does REDs RAW record on the camera? Because if you have settings as you shoot (lets say ISO, or color temperature, whatever) why does that create only a "thin" layer of metadata. Obviously being uncompressed you can modify very freely, but why does the exported LUT give you a "thicker" layer of meta data? What about those settings on the CineX vs. the settings on the camera, change the look of your image? Does CineX just give you more control over your image? Does it have settings that the camera itself doesn't actually have?

Thanks again
 
RedCine X Pro gives you many more image processing controls that are not built into the camera.

Look at RedCine X Pro as Lightroom for R3d (redcode raw) files. It lets you adjust, conform and export to different formats.

As far as white balance goes: I recommend trying to get an accurate white balance in camera (at least accurate to the look you are trying to achieve.

If Purity is what you seek, then I recommend a Less than 10 dollar Kodak 18% grey card. I would use this in your lighting setups as a reference point for white balance and exposure. It's very cheap and worth the money.

Learn to the read the histograms on the camera - they tell you so much about what the sensor is seeing. Maybe I'll do a quick tutorial on the histrogram/stoplights/goalposts tomorrow or tuesday.
 
I've never heard the terms "thick" or "thin" metadata before I used them in this thread. But I think they apply. You have a lot more types of control in RedCine-X than you do on the camera menus. Though, some stuff does NOT transfer over in a LUT. But there's no other difference; you are tweaking the same RMD (Red MetaData) file. And the beauty of metadata, and of shooting raw, is that anything you change, you have not lost anything! It's wonderful. It's powerful. It gives you so much control and fluidity.

As for storing multiple LUTs, I believe you can, but to be honest, we've never really used them at work. It's a large, powerful, extensive, amazing feature that we just don't use. I'll certainly be playing around with them myself once I order and receive my Scarlet. But until I do, I'm hesitant to comment further on them.
 
http://www.red.com/store/accessories/product/red-cambook is a great set of charts to get. If you ensure you record such a chart for any lighting setup, you make it possible to get and verify your white balance properly in post and ensure accurate colorimetry.

With the RED you don't need warm cards - you can just dial in a few more kelvin on the colour temp to get it looking warmer. Say you're shooting under 3200k lighting - set the wb to 3600k for slightly more warmth or 4000k or more for even more warmth. Similarly lower the kelvin to get coolness.

I've not found hand-held colour temperature meters to be all that accurate, so I don't recommend them. A grey card works well with the RED auto-white (just make sure the card is under the lighting and fills the centre of the screen), as does just setting to a known temperture.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
I've not found hand-held colour temperature meters to be all that accurate, so I don't recommend them. A grey card works well with the RED auto-white (just make sure the card is under the lighting and fills the centre of the screen), as does just setting to a known temperture.
Click to expand...

Not disuputing the claim (although you CAN get your color temp meters calibrated to 'pretty damn good'. However, there is another good reason for a using a color temperature meter. Fguring out / adjusting the individual lights that may be involved in the shot. If you have some fluorescent ceiling lights, some random LED lights, and some tungsten lights around, a color meter can REALLY help with using the right gels to neutralize everything...
 
I set up a few Styles on the HVX and liked being able to switch from different sets of options. With a RED, considering the plethora of reasons you may want to change resolutions, shutter speeds, fps, etc. on such a capable camera, it'd be nice to be able to dial in a handful of settings. I'd probably use the feature even more with Scarlet, but it's obviously an "extra."

BTW, I take it there's a minimum post limit to be able to add more info to your profile?
 
"Thick" versus "thin" metadata is not a term I've seen - I don't think its actually industry jargon.

I think what was meant is that its "just" metadata.

As opposed to LDS metadata, which actually represents on set reality and should be preserved.

Getting your white balance "right" on set has no effect whatsoever on the rest of your post. You can just wash away that "thin veneer" of metadata when you get to post.

So usually I worry about WB most in how it will affect tech illiterate directors and producers.

I typically recommend running Red footage through Resolve or RedCine X as a first step, and your colorist will just set the white balance then.

So, on set, I always just dial a WB that looks a bit like I intend. If I'm under 3200K lighting, I often set WB to around 3500. Totally by eye though, and I (or my 1AC under my direction) recheck it scene by scene.

Now, if I have a DIT (which I rarely do because of budgets!) I have them set a quick look based on test shots in RedCine X, and then load those into the camera. Then I not only get a good white balance, but also a suggestion of the curves and such that will go with the base grade into post.

(John Schwartzman and Brooke Willard were on here saying that the looks Brooke was setting on set often ended up being The Look for Amazing Spider Man.)

This is all a huge change coming from traditional video cameras ... with those, if you screw it up on set, you could screw up the whole post production.

About the only place I sweat this stuff with Red is if I have to use mixed lighting.
 
Thanks again for all the tips. As for the RED Cambook; yikes! I'm by no means poor, and while I am Jewish, I spend money fairly frivolously; but man $425 big 'uns for a color chart? I would appreciate if someone can "sell me" on that chart considering competing charts are of course a lot less. I have no problem throwing down near $500 for a color chart if its worth it, but if someone can explain to me the advantage of the Cambook (other than the RED logo) over competing charts I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks again Graeme and everyone else.
 
Chris Gavrilovic said:
Thanks again for all the tips. As for the RED Cambook; yikes! I'm by no means poor, and while I am Jewish, I spend money fairly frivolously; but man $425 big 'uns for a color chart? I would appreciate if someone can "sell me" on that chart considering competing charts are of course a lot less. I have no problem throwing down near $500 for a color chart if its worth it, but if someone can explain to me the advantage of the Cambook (other than the RED logo) over competing charts I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks again Graeme and everyone else.
Click to expand...


A good color chart is not cheap...you might want to start here:
http://dsclabs.com/DSC Labs Basic Chart Use in Video Applications Web Version.pdf

You get what you pay for, especially where critical color is concerned. The Red charts are made by these guys...the standard:
http://dsclabs.com/
 
The issue with charts is all about manufacturing tolerances, and accuracy. DSC have invested heavily in custom measuring to ensure that every chart that goes out their door is spot-on accurate to the specification. On top of that they're well made, robust charts. I use them.

Graeme
 
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