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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Seriously, no competitor talk?

J

Jeff Calbom

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Okay so I'm obviously very new here, but I must say I'm instantly taken aback by the fact that there's apparently no discussion allowed here regarding certain competitive gear.

RED is great but does that mean in this forum one should not refer, discuss or mention other competitive gear? Is RED really that nervous, paranoid or controlling?

As I said, I'm new (evidenced by thread #1 here) I'm just trying to understand the rules here and what my expectations should be.

With zero discussion allowed regarding other gear this forum has much less value to me.

Am I completely off base? If I am that's fine, I just need to know the true objectivity level of this forum.

I definitely don't mean to cause a stir, I'm just trying to figure out the value and validity of this forum as a newbie.

From another thread:
"We have treated Arri as a special case allowing posts and discussion that we do not afford other competitors.
 
Welcome!

You will ind that the majority of people on this forum are civilized and enjoy a good, level, honest discussion. Over the last year or so, things got a little out of hand. Those of us who own Red cameras, love them. we love using them and learning how to improve with them. When topics begin to sway into the realm of other gear, people who are passionate tend to also get both defensive and abusive. New people to the forum find themselves attacked when asking a legitimate question, because some troll previously caused an uproar. From my viewpoint, and the moderators can correct me if i am completely out to lunch, Making this forum focused on what its named after helps to bring in new people who genuinely want to know, or already know and are willing to help. This can help create a much more pleasant and helpful atmosphere for which i am extremely grateful. It is the ONLY forum i use, not because i own a red, but because a lot of the discussions are very helpful, lighthearted, and chalk full of info, instead of the usual blind arguments.

It's not a perfect solution, But I think you'll enjoy it if you just stick to the rules.
 
No, RED is not nervous or paranoid. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with being controlling, if they choose, and they would be fools for not doing so. This is a private forum and not open to everyone saying whatever they want, anytime they choose. That would be chaos. So there is decorum. When you enter someone's home, you are expected to behave, act in a civilized manner and do not offend the host who has graciously invited you into their private home. They are under no compunction to allow you to stay if you decide to get drunk, make an ass of yourself, offend the others in attendance, etc.

Jim and Jarred have every right to dictate what is said or contributed here. They make some of the best equipment available and want the discussions directed towards that goal.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life" To paraphrase, mind your manners or you will not be allowed the privilege of attending the party. Many in our society think they have a right to say whatever, whenever, without fear of reprisal. They are sadly mistaken. RED's forum, RED's rules. No problem whatsoever. Enjoy your stay.
 
As far as I have experienced, it is possible to talk about competitive products when you are factual (not discussions like: This or that is really great and really busts REDs ass vs Nope, RED is busting the world no matter what) and RED related.

RED covers wider market segments than any other camera I am aware of, from the aspiring (photographer, editor, rental entrepeneur or: whatever), to the camera-hobbyist and enthusiast, to the larger production houses and broadcasters, to the hardcore DP's to The Pirates of the Carribean..

This is reflected on a lot of the in-camera/post options (not at least in the plentitude of options for better and worse), but is a fact that easily derails discussions about just REDs products - without bringing in the factor of competing products.

As opposed to discussing say an Arri 435, which most private persons will have no joy of owning and has a very defined workflow from set to screening to be successfull, RED covers a similar type of user and workflow, but AT THE SAME TIME an ultra easy, quick turnaround video-like workflow.

This often leads to heated discussions abot apples and monkeys (not really apple and oranges, as the users needs and expectations differ totally) where people often get offended because they feel "their" choice of workflow/shootingstyle/kit is diminished by others making other choices.

For example I know users who happily cut with the cam-proxies and CC a bit in FCP for TV (Can you say DTE??? -:) ), while for the productions I am currently involved with, that option is just not relevant.

I like the choices, but the discussions can be heated, because people do not understand eachothers needs.
And this is without adding "orher" products to the soup.

If the results weren't so bizarre at times (happy RED owners with an extatic "wow" factor looming after seeing the image and capacity, bashing experienced high-end DPs and post people for having issues with the camera and workflows for their particular needs), it would all be pretty entertaining. Actually, I think it is pretty entertaining most of the times, but it creates noise.

This make lots of the comparisons hard to communicate and largely irrelevant for huge userbases, whatever your perspective is.

Comparing 7D to RED seems relevant for some, but for me it is pretty irrelevant.
Comparing Alexa to RED is similarily relevant for some, for others THAT is totally irrelevant.

The fun thing we see here, is that these discussions can end up with a comparison between Alexa and 7D. And how bad both are... -:)

As I said, I think it can be fun to follow, but for those seeking information about RED and workflow, it is a mess.

It can be argued that this is one of the best moderated forums on the net, just looking at the active userbase discussing what we love and work with: Film & TV production in the widest implication of both terms, with a common tool: RED.

And actually, more often than not we manage to discuss across the segments we represent.

I think the forum needs more credit for that! And Jarred has done it twice, not to forget. Once with DVXuser (which is huge and active and AFAIK a good place to discuss RED vs 7D) and here, where "professional" systems can be discussed.

Cheers and welcome!
 
REDuser is one of a few communities operated under the landmine umbrella (aka Jarred). REDuser began its days as a camera sub-forum on dvxuser. reduser is a RED centric community. dvxuser offers more comprehensive coverage of various cameras. Or, if you prefer, there are other communities not under the landmine umbrella to choose from that offer comprehensive coverage and ongoing discussion about other cameras. DVinfo, for example is a very successful community that would fit this mold.

REDuser cannot be all things to all people. Nor does it really want to be. It was meant as a RED centric site and community resource, and portal of communication/feedback between RED and its customers.

There was never a rule against discussion of other cameras in the past. It was kind of understood and wasn't an issue. However, things change. other camera discussion became more and more prevalent here. There are various reasons for this that could be explored, but they aren't relevant to the point. Which is, basically... in a community that is already very energetic, and that tends to have a lot of noise at times, other camera discussion mostly just added noise. People argued and got personal entirely too much and it was just detrimental to the community at large. Unfortunately, the net effect of other camera discussion on this website, in the current climate is a negative one.

The name of the website still very much defines its focus. In an ideal world we could discuss whatever here, and everyone could get along. It didn't work out that way. people being able to come here, find the latest build of redcineX, or the latest firmware build for their camera, or news on product shipping, etc, etc, etc. is a main priority. Finding ways to make other camera discussion be more productive here is much lower on the list.

p.s. Probably the biggest competitor red has is in alexa at the moment. Respectful discussion about this cam is welcomed on reduser.
 
OK...

I'm an admitted gear head- I like to talk about all sorts of different cameras.

I'm thrilled to talk about the 7D- I own one and I think its a great tool.

Most folks get it- after all the 7D is essentially a low end preview of what RED's DSMC idea is about. Its very cool to have such a tiny camera that delivers top notch stills and motion- and a camera you can carry around all the time to boot.

Some people can't hear that and it gets out of hand so quickly its unreal.

Then there's folk on the other end. RED systems have real issues. I think they aren't any harder to work around than what's standard in film workflows- but some people can't hear that, and off the rails it goes.

Alexa is a very solid comparison with RED MX in many ways important to film productions. Alexa vs. RED conversations tend to be more rational, but read them- they go off the rails rather quickly.

I can't say definitively why that is. I think part of it is that a lot of people learned on RED now- and a lot of those people wouldn't have had a chance to learn without RED- so there is a lot of emotion. Not the whole story, but part of it.

Another part is that RED is an upstart company. RED was called a scam by the industry for years, then cameras showed up and it was always something that made them unsuitable. Part of that is that the film business is essentially conservative, and film is king. That's changing and change is scary so they dump on RED. Then you have all these RED folks, including a lot of production newbies, who have this system they know is great and are reacting emotionally.

So... there is another part of the puzzle- but again not the whole picture.

Anyway, people do in fact talk about other technology here. I mention other cameras all the time. Often there is a valid comparison- and sometimes another camera is definitely the better solution for a given cinematographic problem. For example the House episode shot on a 5D was almost unshootable as conceived with any traditional camera system- including RED One. A RED Epic may have worked for them- but Epic isn't available, and the 5D worked brilliantly for their episode.

The key is to keep it respectful and as fact based as possible. This is RED-land. You don't show up in Cowboys Stadium with a Redskins jersey and act like an a*$hole unless you want a fight. On the other hand if you do show up and root for the Skins and are otherwise respectful things will be OK.
 
Well said Alexander.
 
Good responses here, it seems most people do understand the situation.

The best way to look at it is that this is RED's house. We have enough trouble keeping everything on-topic without discussing a million other camera systems on the market. Mention or even discussion of other cameras is still possible, as long as the discussion is relevant to RED.. For example, there are numerous workflow threads that discuss the intercutting of RED footage with footage shot on DSLRs or other HD and film cameras.

It's perfectly acceptable for someone to post a question such as "Hey, I love my 7D and it does XXXX, will Scarlet be able to do XXXX as well or maybe even YYYY???"

Anyone who has been around here a while should know it's not about RED being nervous or anything like that. In fact, the Other Cameras forum originally was a forum section here -- created as an attempt to give people a place to put all that other discussion. But then it was nixed and felt it was best to leave that discussion over to DVXuser, which is still linked here if you click on the Other Cameras Discussion.

Some ongoing discussions about direct competition are healthy and welcomed. There is actually a very civilized and even useful RED MX vs. Alexa discussion on here at the moment.

Just remember, it's RED's house and they are actually very liberal and generous as to what we talk about around here. This is not an open free-for-all or general camera forum site -- it's RED's official forums. In comparison, go see just how lively the Canon, Panasonic, Arri, or Sony official forums are.
 
It all makes complete sense and I really appreciate everyone offering up both the background context of why it is that way as well as why it should be that way.

I've been to enough forums to completely grasp your meaning of threads revolving around heated passion rather than insightful commentary.
 
Jeff, thanks for being courteous and respectful in your first post here, reading the rules (signing up with your real name), and welcome to the boards :)
 
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