Sensor Crop a Possible Firmware Fix?

[Mathew Joki]

Hate to kick a dead horse here, but I can't seem to find any sort of discussion or answer to the question of if it's at all possible to make 1:1 pixel crop a selectable option with a firmware update from RED.

Does anyone have incite on this? Is there any specific reason why it can't be done? Or why they "don't want to"?

It would be so much easier to record 2K@60fps with the same FOV as 4K (or 5K) The GH2 has this option and is "lowly DSLR." Is it a matter of the complexity of the math at higher bitrates/pixel counts of the RED sensors? Or something else I'm not seeing here?

This personally is a major factor in my choice of whether to invest in a Scarlet-X or not. If it was added as a feature I wouldn't hesitate to buy! Even 1080p RGB would be a welcomed addition. Anyone else with me on this?


Thanks for your input and comments.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

If you're asking if it is possible to punch in 1:1 to controll focus, that has been possible for a long time.

But you cannot shoot that way or choose which part of the frame you wanna see 1:1. It is center only.

Dunno if that aswered your question, but that's it for now...

 

[Mathew Joki]

Why not though? Almost every other HD camera/HDSLR shoots 1080p and 720p with the same FOV with no sensor cropping. So why is it impossible on the RED?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

You both speak something different...

But RED has stated (a long time ago) that they won't give "pixel skipping from the entire sensor" option. If you want 2k res with the same VOF/DOF shoot 4/5k and use half/quarter debayer!

RED stated they won't make any change that would result in the loss of picture quality. Professional camera spoken here...

Pat

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Ah... You want line-skipping!

That is a very bad plan, and will fortunately not happen, as long as RED doesn't become a silly public company...

 

[Dmitry Burenok]

I think it is technically possible to use line skipping readout instead of windowing sensor in general to have consistent FOV on all resolution, but it could be quite impossible with RED Mysterium-X. More interesting is having potential faster GPU upgrade to stay at 5K workflow on all FPS.

 

[Erik Franzén]

If you line skip or bin pixels... you are throwing away the primary reason for shooting on a SCARLET-X -- the extra resolution gained when downscaling to a 2K master. Besides, if aliasing was acceptable then moving beyond a DSLR wouldn't be necessary xP

 

[Jake Bastian]

You both speak something different...

But RED has stated (a long time ago) that they won't give "pixel skipping from the entire sensor" option. If you want 2k res with the same VOF/DOF shoot 4/5k and use half/quarter debayer!

RED stated they won't make any change that would result in the loss of picture quality. Professional camera spoken here...

Pat

Sorry to nitpick here, but you absolutely don't want to do half/quarter debayer. You want to downscale to 1080 or 720 using a full debayer.

 

[Mathew Joki]

Sorry to nitpick here, but you absolutely don't want to do half/quarter debayer. You want to downscale to 1080 or 720 using a full debayer.

Yes, this is what I was talking about. Debayer the full 4k, but only record a 2k image. (Half the pixels should be easy compression math, right?)

Back to a question in my original post though... What about 1080p RGB? Possibly available in a firmware update for Scarlet??

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Yes, this is what I was talking about. Debayer the full 4k, but only record a 2k image. (Half the pixels should be easy compression math, right?)

Back to a question in my original post though... What about 1080p RGB? Possibly available in a firmware update for Scarlet??

1080 RGB scaled has been on the table a number of times, but I would guess that the latest "4k or nothing" statements would be limiting for that option...

We are some who could do with a 1080 prores or whatever, at least for offlines and not h.264...

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Yes, this is what I was talking about. Debayer the full 4k, but only record a 2k image. (Half the pixels should be easy compression math, right?)

Debayer is what comes after recording raw... Are you asking for an optional module that would do 2k QT/MXF/DNxHD/DPX files? You can do that in post. Or use the HDSDI output and record it off board.

Back to a question in my original post though... What about 1080p RGB? Possibly available in a firmware update for Scarlet??

RED are doing RAW cameras (more specifically R3D cameras) Raw is not RGB. RGB from a bayer patern sensor means post-processing that could be for exemple implemented in a module. I don't think only firmware update could manage this.

Pat

PS: I don't see the case of a S35 2k raw file recording from a 5k original sensor as the size of the R3D file is really not an issue. Read out time to implement higher frame rates wouldn't improve neither... I think.

 

[Luc Bouvrette]

Ah... You want line-skipping!

That is a very bad plan, and will fortunately not happen, as long as RED doesn't become a silly public company...

Ahahaha good one.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Sorry to nitpick here, but you absolutely don't want to do half/quarter debayer. You want to downscale to 1080 or 720 using a full debayer.

Of course use FULL DEBAYER! but using 2k from the 5k S35 sensor is like using half debayer... Not a good option.

Pat

 

[Mathew Joki]

So to clarify... Scaling to 4K frame size to 2K resolution would result in half debayer, meaning aliasing and moire issues?

Respectively though, won't windowing down to 2K result in 2x magnified noise within the image?

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

I must admit, as much as line skipping is terrible, it would be extremely useful to have a full frame 2.5k line skipped mode that gives the same field of view as 5k and might even allow 48 or 60fps. Aliasing is annoying, but skipping one line for each line recorded would not be the end of the world and might be the answer to giving us full frame motion options and avoiding potentially having to carry around 16mm lens sets around in addition to 35mm just for overcranking. The 5dmk2 skips 2lines for each one recorded (and likely has a weaker OLPF per pixel due to its higher pixel count), which is as much as twice the space between lines as 1line per line recorded would be, and people still manage to use it for professional work here and there

 

[Gunleik Groven]

So to clarify... Scaling to 4K frame size to 2K resolution would result in half debayer, meaning aliasing and moire issues?

Respectively though, won't windowing down to 2K result in 2x magnified noise within the image?

Yes, you are right

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I must admit, as much as line skipping is terrible, it would be extremely useful to have a full frame 2.5k line skipped mode that gives the same field of view as 5k and might even allow 48 or 60fps. Aliasing is annoying, but skipping one line for each line recorded would not be the end of the world and might be the answer to giving us full frame motion options and avoiding potentially having to carry around 16mm lens sets around in addition to 35mm just for overcranking. The 5dmk2 skips 2lines for each one recorded (and likely has a weaker OLPF per pixel due to its higher pixel count), which is as much as twice the space between lines as 1line per line recorded would be, and people still manage to use it for professional work here and there

I understand your point... But RED won't ever do such a thing.

...never say never...

Pat

 

[Richard_JP]

The crop factor does kinda suck. I see the only two settings that are worth shooting at, Are the 4k and 3k but then your stuck with 24 at 4k and 48at 3k, which isn't bad but we want 60p for slow motion.

the fs100 shoots 60p using the full sensor. which is nice for DOF. Sad you can't do that with the Scarlet.

Hopefully RED will have software upgrade. Then I will purchase.

They could even keep 5k at 12fps so the scarlet won't step into the epic.

My thoughts exactly. The frame rates + sensor crop + low is what's holding me back from ordering.

The Scarlet announcement really got me thinking. And my conclusion is that the Epic really is the best camera out there, and can't be matched (duh). The Scarlet had to be crippled, but I think they have crippled it in the wrong place (for me at least). It also made me realise that cameras like the FS100 are really not so bad. I just wish they had a higher bit rate, oh and a little more DR would be nice... Oh, and not made from plastic. It also brought to my attention that the R1 really is an amazing camera that can be purchased at a reasonable price right now. If you can deal with the weight of it, it gives you more than the Scarlet at the same price (second hand of course).

 

[laurent delaroziere]

My thoughts exactly. The frame rates + sensor crop + low is what's holding me back from ordering.

The Scarlet announcement really got me thinking. And my conclusion is that the Epic really is the best camera out there, and can't be matched (duh). The Scarlet had to be crippled, but I think they have crippled it in the wrong place (for me at least). It also made me realise that cameras like the FS100 are really not so bad. I just wish they had a higher bit rate, oh and a little more DR would be nice... Oh, and not made from plastic. It also brought to my attention that the R1 really is an amazing camera that can be purchased at a reasonable price right now. If you can deal with the weight of it, it gives you more than the Scarlet at the same price (second hand of course).

Epic has the same sensor crop.

 

[David Rasberry]

If you want to shoot 4k at 1080p, just buy a Ninja or KIpro and record 1080p off the SDI port. That gives a high quality deBayered output without cropping the sensor. You won't get the higher frame rates though.

I plan to shoot a lot of routine video stuff at 2k crop, 16mm sized image with 16mm lenses. If you want the larger sensor format and higher frame rates, Epic is the choice for now.