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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

seductive metadata control

NEO 4K and Prospect 4K are available now at $999 and $1999 respectively. The conversion utilities for Red One are not shipping yet awaiting the SDK. We will be finishing a RAW to RAW conversion management tool, that will be $1999, all owners of our 4K products before May 31st, will get grand fathered this capablility for free once it is released.
 
Very impressed.

Very impressed.

David Newman said:
NEO 4K and Prospect 4K are available now at $999 and $1999 respectively. The conversion utilities for Red One are not shipping yet awaiting the SDK. We will be finishing a RAW to RAW conversion management tool, that will be $1999, all owners of our 4K products before May 31st, will get grand fathered this capablility for free once it is released.
Click to expand...

David:

spent about a half hour talking to David at NAB. As you know, he's very articulate guy that gives a great demonstration. I was extremely impressed with your active metadata - it seems a brilliantly simple approach to working with the 4K files - almost too good to be true. I think I understand it enough to know that it isn't too good to be true - that it's real but I wondered if you could expand on it and maybe bat it around here with the other geniuses so I could understand it better.

My two specific areas of interest are:

1) What might the limitations/downsides be to this approach and

2) What is to stop Apple from incorporating this directly into Final Cut Pro? and what additional goodies do we get with Cineform that even if Apple can do it that would be better or additional features? I'm not asking this to create FUD (and even if Apple does it - given the state of their follow through with Quicktime/Final Cut/RED - I wouldn't necessarily trust them to do it right anyway) I'm sincerely just trying to understand the technology and its ramifications.

Again, I was very impressed and your software is on my short list of items I saw at NAB for purchase over the next few months.
 
AquaVideoRed206 said:
David:

spent about a half hour talking to David at NAB. As you know, he's very articulate guy that gives a great demonstration. I was extremely impressed with your active metadata - it seems a brilliantly simple approach to working with the 4K files - almost too good to be true. I think I understand it enough to know that it isn't too good to be true - that it's real but I wondered if you could expand on it and maybe bat it around here with the other geniuses so I could understand it better.

My two specific areas of interest are:

1) What might the limitations/downsides be to this approach and

2) What is to stop Apple from incorporating this directly into Final Cut Pro? and what additional goodies do we get with Cineform that even if Apple can do it that would be better or additional features? I'm not asking this to create FUD (and even if Apple does it - given the state of their follow through with Quicktime/Final Cut/RED - I wouldn't necessarily trust them to do it right anyway) I'm sincerely just trying to understand the technology and its ramifications.

Again, I was very impressed and your software is on my short list of items I saw at NAB for purchase over the next few months.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the positive feedback. Active Metadata is one of the features that helps demonstrate that we are much more than a codec, even on the Mac. It is a concept we have been planning and working on the a long time, SI getting the first early version of it about 18 months ago, now opening up for all RAW, and soon 444, sources. So I will not get into question 2 other than I believe we have a good lead over Apple for this technology, it does favor RAW or 4:4:4 encoding over 4:2:2, but we would love Apple to directly support it with CineForm compression in their native real-time mode (that would be nice.)

As for the downsides. None really, as Active Metadata is non-destructive technique, users can completely turn it off or just ignore it, use the compressor as a simple DPX replacement. It is just a cool addition to using the CineForm workflow, greatly assisting for smaller productions and collaborative workflows. As a techniques it does favor on-line workflows vs proxy conform, but we are looking at in use in both workflows. Also it is a low level codec function, it does require the use of CineForm compression, a downside for some and a positive for others.
 
David,

I couldn't attend NAB but saw the presentation at freshdv.com and, yes, was very impressed. Cineform is truly a magic tool, and my planned path for posting RED footage, whenever it becomes possible. However, I see that it can do real time at 2K and 4K, but the windows David was working on were downsized to something like a 720 format as it looked to me. Does this tool really work real time at true full 2 and 4K resolutions? Granted, you'd probably need a projector for 4K, but what about 2K, have you tested on a 30" monitor?
 
4K plays at 2K real-time with the active metadata today under Windows, and slightly less than that on the Mac (we have nice PC and old Mac Pros, not quite the some system performance.) We hope to complete the Mac optimization for 4K projects by the time the RED SDK is available. The FreshDV presention was likely a 1K decode (the window size in FCP automatically sets the about of decode work we need to do.) We can do a 4K real-time decode with real-time demosaic on Windows today (expect to do nothing much else), but there is no where to send that data. However 4K playing at 2K on 30" monitor looks amazing, we where showing that all week.

P.S. When we mix 2K RAW with 4K RAW or 4K 444 on a timeline, they all play at 2K (if requested), the 2K RAW is demosaiced in real-time, cutting very nicely with the 4K, even with multistream elements.
 
David Newman said:
NEO 4K and Prospect 4K are available now at $999 and $1999 respectively. The conversion utilities for Red One are not shipping yet awaiting the SDK. We will be finishing a RAW to RAW conversion management tool, that will be $1999, all owners of our 4K products before May 31st, will get grand fathered this capablility for free once it is released.
Click to expand...

Do you mean the RAW to RAW convert capability?

We spoke about speed a little at NAB but can you refresh my memory? What is the transcode speed like from .r3d to Cineform RAW?
 
12 Fps

12 Fps

I was at the Cineform booth on three separate occasions and always got the same answer. 12 FPS. Or we can just keep using Redcine and render out to a
an encoded format like Prores, but of course my realtime experience rendering on a MacPro 3 GZ Quad core is more than 1.5 Seconds PER Frame. When you do the math, Cineform users are going to get to have a life.
 
Sorry guys, no one should have mentioned 12 fps, we are getting 10fps using own internal only tools (using 4K 2:1 mode footage.) The reason it is fast, is we aren't doing and demosaiced during the conversion. Once the SDK is out we intend to do the same RAW to RAW operation, and we expect to achieve similar speeds with the SDK (fingers crossed.) We will be charging for the RAW conversion tools once we can ship them, but we will remain a very cost effective solution.
 
10 Fps

10 Fps

Thanks David for that correction. But it is really only a small difference in the huge speed increase over having to demosaic as you encode. I do have a couple of remaining questions. 1. Redcine has options for sharpening, OLPF correction and matrix on or off. How does Cineform deal with these and if not how do you suggest we address them? 2. You mentioned that any buyer/owner of Cineform by May 31 would get your conversion utility free. Does this not apply to the raw converter? If not, how much will it cost?
 
Our range of demosaicing filters have built in NR and sharpening controls to compensate for OLPF and the general softening that can happen with a good demosaic. While don't have the dates on the SDK yet, so May 31st is a placeholder, and yes for the RAW convertor. Basically we are rewarding the early adoptor and the existing CineForm customer. We hope in the meantime the issues with RedCine export to CineForm can be addressed, as that is the Red official way of doing things until the SDK.
 
In progress

In progress

At the Red User party Red folks would not comment on build 16 other than there is no release date.

David,

What about Redcine's ability to have matrix on or off?
Also, do your conversion tools allow for adjusting the amount of NR and sharpening?
 
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