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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

SDK - that's not hype...

Native Support

Native Support

shannyla said:
Ehm well, Sony Xpri worked with HDCAM natively, and Smoke/Flame also used to have an HDCAM codec option.

In fact the coolest thing about Xpri was the faster than real time HDCAM transfer feature.

Dead in the water now of course but it did exist. SR of course is a different matter, I could argue that DPX is the native file format for SR workflows but thats a different matter.
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True, it once existed (on only TWO platforms) but it does not exist anymore. And native codec editing support never existed for Digi-Beta or D-5 HD and (please correct me if I am wrong) it still does not exist for HDCAM SR.


That aside, the main point is this.

It takes time to enable a native codec based workflow, especially across multiple vendor platforms. The SDK available from RED is arguably the most aggressive solution to enabling multiple post production applications that has been attempted (with the possible exception of low end DV and HDV)

Lets just give it a little time to mature.
 
Stuart English said:
True, it once existed (on only TWO platforms) but it does not exist anymore. And native codec editing support never existed for Digi-Beta or D-5 HD and (please correct me if I am wrong) it still does not exist for HDCAM SR.


That aside, the main point is this.

It takes time to enable a native codec based workflow, especially across multiple vendor platforms. The SDK available from RED is arguably the most aggressive solution to enabling multiple post production applications that has been attempted (with the possible exception of low end DV and HDV)
Click to expand...

While I admire the effort (and bemoan the fact that nobody these days seems to understand what ALPHA and BETA development means), let's not revise history. With videotape, the "files" live on the tape itself, and are translated - in real time - to a usable signal that adheres to a specific published and supported format for other hardware. It is all hardware driven, and it is all real time. These formats have been edited for years using live signals passed through a hardware switcher. Any discussion about lack of "codec support" is rather silly because real time "codec support" is built into the "interpreting computer" - i.e., the VTR. Your world is new in that it is purely software, not hardware, driven. The comparison should be to things like DV, HDV, DVCProHD, AVC, and, yes, Cineform and Cineform Raw, not to mention Phantom's Cine format. But to say that multiple post application support has never been attempted is also a bit revisionist. Quicktime and AVI have both provided such support for years now, and "native codec support" for some of the formats I just mentioned was developed either cooperatively (as in the case of DVCPro) or independently using vendor provided development tools (as in the case of Cineform and Adobe's post applications) - just like you're doing, if not as public. While it's true - and admirable - that you're developing tools for multiple vendors to incorporate your format, it's also true that others have essentially done the same thing. That doesn't make your effort any less significant, but it's also good to be realistic about it.
 
Originally Posted by Photocon
This whole thread reeks of someone who doesnt understand software development getting information from people who understand it even less.
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Offhollywood said:
Amen.
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Sorry to tell you your getting pathetic... You know what the point is.

My two cents :greedy:


Patrick
 
Native Coded

Native Coded

mmost said:
While I admire the effort (and bemoan the fact that nobody these days seems to understand what ALPHA and BETA development means), let's not revise history. With videotape, the "files" live on the tape itself, and are translated - in real time - to a usable signal that adheres to a specific published and supported format for other hardware. It is all hardware driven, and it is all real time. These formats have been edited for years using live signals passed through a hardware switcher. Any discussion about lack of "codec support" is rather silly because real time "codec support" is built into the "interpreting computer" - i.e., the VTR. Your world is new in that it is purely software, not hardware, driven. The comparison should be to things like DV, HDV, DVCProHD, AVC, and, yes, Cineform and Cineform Raw, not to mention Phantom's Cine format. But to say that multiple post application support has never been attempted is also a bit revisionist. Quicktime and AVI have both provided such support for years now, and "native codec support" for some of the formats I just mentioned was developed either cooperatively (as in the case of DVCPro) or independently using vendor provided development tools (as in the case of Cineform and Adobe's post applications) - just like you're doing, if not as public. While it's true - and admirable - that you're developing tools for multiple vendors to incorporate your format, it's also true that others have essentially done the same thing. That doesn't make your effort any less significant, but it's also good to be realistic about it.
Click to expand...

Mike it's not intended to be revisionist, its my observation of what happened. This is not a discussion of editing base band video captured from an HD tape recorders - we know that works. Of course there is a pre-requisite and limitation of that form of workflow (i.e. you can only shoot that format)

Instead, this discussion started as bemoaning the lack of an end-to-end native codec workflow for RED ONE .R3D files. My point is simply that until DVCPRO HD there never had been a native codec workflow (except arguably for DV / DVCAM) and those workflows took time to become available across platforms, so a little patience would be prudent while it's worked out.
 
I don't have a lot to add that hasn't been said already, but just so everyone knows where that quote from me was pulled from, it was where I posted the Autodesk workflow paper.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21158

The workflow on the high end is established for the most part. Companies that have embraced the workflow and developed Redcentric pipelines are able to support the format very well from what I have seen. They are using it on a daily basis and processing a lot of Red footage. It will continue to improve and those piplelines will be refined and become even more efficient, but they are certainly able to handle it NOW.

On the lower end, the independents and those who are new to Red are figuring out ways to work with the Red footage, sometimes there is a lot of trial and error involved. Sometimes the tools don't work as expected because they are beta or unrefined. But can we expect perfection from free tools or almost free tools? I have experienced the Redcine still frame export problem. I have experienced some quirks with Red Alert and Red Rushes. I have experienced some bugs with Crimson. And even one of my new favorite apps (Clipfinder) has had some minor issues here and there. When you are in the middle of a project, having software not do what you expect it to do can be a nightmare. But, I have to remind myself that there are tools available that can solve some of the problems, but I have to be willing to pay for it. I have to be in a position where I can go out and get a workflow that is as close to flawless as money can buy. If I can't, I use the tools I have at my disposal. The following list of software cost me about $250.

1. Redcine
2. Red Alert
3. Red Rushes
4. Clipfinder
5. Crimson Workflow
6. R3D Data Manager
7. AASync

For that price tag, I am getting my money's worth. I am able to work with Red footage, come up with pipelines that get the job done, and by some miracle be working with 4K images on my computer, which up until 2 years ago was not even in my thoughts. I was just trying to figure out how to fund a decent HD suite.

This is not to say I don't understand the frustration out there though. Perception of Red post being difficult has been contagious. I do hear it from people. But a lot of times I discover that they don't even know about editing with the QT proxies as an option. I still talk with producers who fear P2. But here is the reality. There are almost 5000 cameras out there now. Let's say, at least half of those are working consistently. Now throw in the big announcement on the 13th. It will probably be tough for anyone to ignore Red at that point. Post facilities, independent producers, wedding videographers, etc. will all be taking a look at Red and what it takes to work with the format. There will continue to be more information published about Red workflow, the tools will get better, Adobe plugin will happen, buzz will be created and things will get ironed out.

Remember, we are on the cutting edge. Some might say, the bleeding edge. You may have to bleed a little bit before your blood turns to gold. But unless I am wrong, the momentum is riding in Red's favor.

I have to think that the ultimate goal of Red and Jim in particular is to have Red and the Redcode RAW format be implemented everywhere it makes sense to. NLE's, effects software, and eventually iMovie and Windows Moviemaker in some form. Because it will need to be if they are taking on the hybrid still/video camera market. That market will be widespread with a large spectrum of potential endusers. I can't see them locking out third parties. This would make no sense financially. I think right now, this a period where they need to control it to a certain extent until it is refined enough to make its way to the masses.

Maybe we will know even more on the 13th.
 
Offhollywood said:
And we surely know that WHATEVER we find out on the 13th - no matter how amazing - people will still complain.
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If we all saw eye to eye on everything, the world would be a pretty boring place. :biggrin:

The true time to judge all of this might be this time next year. That will be two years since cameras have been out in the market and the new wave of cameras, accessories, and software will have been announced and possibly even shipping. It will be a good time to reflect on what has been accomplished. I expect there will be a pretty well oiled machine in place.

It will also be 2 years that I have had the camera and can reflect on what I've accomplished with it. That might end up being the more pertinent question for me. I've got the tool. Did I do anything with it? :unsure:
 
stevesherrick said:
1. Redcine
2. Red Alert
3. Red Rushes
4. Clipfinder
5. Crimson Workflow
6. R3D Data Manager
7. AASync
Click to expand...

There's also the free QT component and REDline.

RAW workflow for video is brand new but without RED it would never have grown so quickly.

I'd guess the comments below were from Chrome Imaging. Those guys complain to no end about everything yet have almost zero market share.
 
REDLINE is the most underrated piece of software from RED. If (or I should say, when) RED releases REDLINE for Windows and Linux, it will be HUGE!!!
 
Offhollywood said:
And we surely know that WHATEVER we find out on the 13th - no matter how amazing - people will still complain.
Click to expand...

I think we should maybe start to try to see things as requests or constructive criticism. Why is this forum so defensive all the time? We should nurture that it's so open to opinions as it is. That's how we're going to evolve, especially RED. To many times is there that a voice gets bullied into silence on this forum.

No one questions that RED is not a scam. No questions that RED is not an accomplished camera and no one questions that RED is not working their ass off for making this the best product of this century.

The road for that though is still long, but RED will hopefully do it in a time that, if you look at our business history, will be blazing fast.

But during that time in order to make it in blazing speed it's important that we keep criticism coming, because that's the only way to learn.

I've lately started to wonder why I every time I'm to post something feel the need to say.

I love my RED and I think it's the best thing that has happened to me but....

Why do I need to write that? I've bought three of them it's quite clear I think it's a great camera.

I don't see people at CML write I love ARRI but....
 
Ariana said:
I'd guess the comments below were from Chrome Imaging. Those guys complain to no end about everything yet have almost zero market share.
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The complaint, like some may call it, is from a RED user wich wants to work with wide spread industry sandard platforms.

Thats all.

I'm happy to see that Quantel and Iridas are offering R3D support shortly. Let see how their R3D solutions are.

Patrick
 
weirdcrew said:
I think we should maybe start to try to see things as requests or constructive criticism. Why is this forum so defensive all the time? We should nurture that it's so open to opinions as it is. That's how we're going to evolve, especially RED. To many times is there that a voice gets bullied into silence on this forum.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between constructive and tactful criticism and flat out whining/complaining/demanding.

Ever notice that it's the europeans that do the most whining. It's a self entitlement that makes me embarrassed to be a European. Look at the Australians and New Zealanders, they just get the job done and offer constructive criticism in return.

The squeeky wheel doesn't get the most attention but this has turned into the european way.

If someone whined and complained and demanded at you in a public forum versus someone like Pederson that was politely constructive, who would you listen to first? Who would you personally like to have as a customer.

Would you like to have a producer/director that whined and complained and yelled at you on set or the one that was was professional?

There's alot of good constructive criticism and there's bad. This one was misdirected and bad. I am surprised that still bothers to respond whit all the babies on this board.
 
Tresch said:
The complaint, like some may call it, is from a RED user wich wants to work with wide spread industry sandard platforms.
Patrick
Click to expand...

I was referring to the body of your complaint which seems to have come from Chrome.

I got two PMs today indicating that Chrome Imaging has said the same thing to them.

I can't help but think that's not good for anyone.
 
Ariana said:
I can't help but think that's not good for anyone.
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OK, then let's stop this thread and forget about SDK. I didn't have the illusion that I would push SDK development doing so no, no:clown2: .

Nor did I wanted to play the bad boy, nor the wining puppy. But after 2 days of very diverses posts, from people FOR and AGAINST post Nr.1 it seems to me that there are stuff to be discussed. Now, I can take the critics that my opinion was "non constuctive".:devil:

What's good for anyone?

Perhaps a good SDK?

Patrick
 
Lin said:
We don't talk about SDK internals, so whoever Rivai called, it was not us.

We have a working R3D plug-in that is entering beta next week.

Best,
Lin
Click to expand...

So What's up Lin?

Any news about your beta working R3D plug-in?

I find Speedgrade a great product and you are probably the leader in RAW data management (we see it on the list of the supported Raw format and cameras). I would be pleased to hear good news.:w00t:

Patrick
 
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