SD card -vs- CF card?

[jtcoleman]

...from the Red User's Manual, pg. 4:

"An SD Memory card slot is provided below this group of keys, and may be used for camera setup storage and software upgrades. A 512 MB SD card is provided with the camera."

Why? If SD is too slow for capturing footage (which I assume it must be, or most ppl wouldn't need the CF card adapter) then ... why include it at all?

It's like attaching a crappy floppy drive to my PC.... It doesn't have enough capacity to hold anything, anyway, so why include it at all? Firmware could be upgraded through a USB2 cable, or similar ... or you include the CF drive on the chasis as a general storage device, and put out the updates on a small capacity CF card...?

what am I missing?

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396

 

[Sean R.]

Future use of L.U.T.'s

 

[REDBLUE&GREEN]

The sd card slot is probably to be used for transfer of information to the camera. i.e. set-up...gamma..etc.

RED SHOULD USE SxS CARDS

Since the Camera is going thru a little over haul right now.. ( ie lens mount..etc..etc..).....It would be great to use the new tech.... SxS ( S-by-S) cards that are made by Sony..and soon Sandisk, Lexar. The technology is much faster than a CF card... almost three times as fast... also the download is much faster/ easier too. It is supported by final cut pro and can be downloaded to a Mac book Pro thru the express port. This is Great technology RED Family!!!

Can it be added???

Sandisk will have a 32 gig card out by early next spring...The down load time on the 16 gig cards right now is very fast...(about 1/4 real time for 24MB/s...RED) over 90MB/sec Read and write. More than three times REDCODE!!! Maybe with this card a "New Red code" could be added at a latter date that would be less compressed....50MB/s , 60 or 75MB/s.....

SxS - For the future!

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

SXS: Nice Hijack!

Very cool and somewhat affordable from a few seconds of poking around...

http://www.taperesources.com/PROFES...Y_CARDS.html?gclid=CJi0tNr8jZACFRdPagodIF6-tA

$490 bucks for 8 gig and $880 for 16 gig.

The cool thing with Red is that they can (hopefully) just have create an SXS module just like they have a CF module and a sata module, etc. with no need to delay the cameras now--they just need to license the reader/writer modules from Sony and incorporate the writing mechanism into a bolt-on module (sure--I say "only" because they are wizards and the change just requires a few waves of their wands but i'm sure it would be a ton of work for us mere mortals)

A month later we have an SXS module on the Red.com store for $500--just that simple (or with the likely Sony license incorporated--$5K)

Then, hopefully, a firmware upgrade will help recogize the higher speeds and reward us with higher framerates !!!

Viva La Revolucion!

 

[REDBLUE&GREEN]

Cnn is just now starting to use the SxS Card for News capture in 1080i or p.

I got mine for a little less than 880.00 per 16gig/ for a new small Sony 1080p camera.

Sandisk and Lexar will sell their versions soon. Hopefully that will bring the price down. And Good news for RED.

 

[Dalibor Fencl]

Why? If SD is too slow for capturing footage (which I assume it must be, or most ppl wouldn't need the CF card adapter) then ... why include it at all?


JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396

Come on man, SD slot might rise the price of camera approximately by $10. And is definitely more handy than any USB cable around.

 

[Stuart English]

SDIO slot / SD Card

SDIO slot / SD Card

SD Card provides low cost storage (LOOK files, camera set up) and offers an option to perform camera firmware upgrades if you don't have a CF card.

Another potential opportunity is to hold one of several different types of wireless transceiver which are available in that same SDIO slot format

As for other solid state media, the left face module is flexible enough to be replaced with an ExpressCard 34 or other emerging digital media module in future. Its one of our key advantages that we can track developments in the media markets. At the moment though, only CF has proven to be fast enough, or available at the right speed, or priced right, to be used. ( The ExpressCard based SxS is more than twice the price of CF ... ouch! )

 

[jtcoleman]

SD Card provides low cost storage (LOOK files, camera set up) and offers an option to perform camera firmware upgrades if you don't have a CF card.

Another potential opportunity is to hold one of several different types of wireless transceiver which are available in that same SDIO slot format

As for other solid state media, the left face module is flexible enough to be replaced with an ExpressCard 34 or other emerging digital media module in future. Its one of our key advantages that we can track developments in the media markets. At the moment though, only CF has proven to be fast enough, or available at the right speed, or priced right, to be used. ( The ExpressCard based SxS is more than twice the price of CF ... ouch! )

...but why include an SD card at all, if it is too slow for storage? why not just include the CF card reader directly on camera, instead? ... then the you could use the same reader for both firmware upgrades and as a storage device.

then, if someone wanted to use a wireless transciever of some sort, they could use the left face (optional) module for that.

JT
Austin, Texas

 

[Greg M]

Why are you opposed to the SD card slot...personally I find it very useful. I store all the firmware updates on the card in case of need to change in the field. It will als come in hady to store LUTs at some point im sure.

 

[jtcoleman]

Why are you opposed to the SD card slot...personally I find it very useful. I store all the firmware updates on the card in case of need to change in the field. It will als come in hady to store LUTs at some point im sure.

...because if they included a CF on the base camera, it would do all that and more, and I wouldn't have to spend extra money to buy one as an add on.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas

 

[Jarred Land]

Why are you opposed to the SD card slot...personally I find it very useful. I store all the firmware updates on the card in case of need to change in the field. It will als come in hady to store LUTs at some point im sure.

you nailed it.

 

[jtcoleman]

you nailed it.

Hey Jarred,

thanks for jumping in!

so, i'm not trying to be obstinate here, but ... couldn't do this with a CF card, too?

Basically, my point isn't that SD cards stink and are worthless. and I'm not arguing that you don't need a mechanism to update the camera; of course you do.

Basically, I'm just saying: a CF card reader on camera would be better than the SD one. the cost increase to red would be, like, $10 or something... and a CF drive would do everything the SD card reader does ...and more!

Right now, if you buy the base camera, it doesn't work right out the box. You have to buy some kind of external storage device to make the camera even work.

If you put a CF card reader in place of the SD card one, the camera would be useable immediately... and it would still give you all the benefits of the SD card, like firmware updates, etc.

I was just curious why this approach wasn't used. The camera seems so elegant and modular in every other way; this one design point seems oddly out of place to me. What am I missing?

JT
Austin, Tx

 

[Axel Mertes]

JT,

honestly I think this discussion leads nowhere. The cameras - including the card slots - are ready. I expect nearly non of us other users to wait for delivery for THIS reason.

If you need a CF card rather than an SD card on your "outside RED" usage, then there are plenty 5 US$ converters that will give you an SD slot in the CF card form, so make that SD card a CF card that works for you. The differences in the port itself are technically minimal, except that the form factor is limiting certain stuff.

I see the point that you don't want to pay 500 US$ for the CF card slot that could have been there right out of the box. Technically that data path must not be the same in terms of internal access as the SD slot has (assumption here) and I believe the CF reader is not just a connector, but some base electronics, as it docs into a port that has other high bandwidth use outstanding.

Last but not least the body is quite cheap, maybe somewhat too cheap after all. I guess RED may be quite interested to earn some money in this area, that may not be had in the body, because they hold to their original promise of pricing for the body. The modularity give them chance to sell some stuff a little more expensive than you would like to. You may argue on every cable or piece of metal or rod. Compared to ARRI stuff its still a deal. IMHO.

Cheers,
Axel

 

[jtcoleman]

> honestly I think this discussion leads nowhere. The cameras - including the card slots - are ready. I expect nearly non of us other users to wait for delivery for THIS reason.

Probably. but, hey, they changed the PL mount last month, so, one can hope. (I've heard a rumor that things change. even the delivery dates and camera specs, eh?)

Look, I'm not trying to be obstinate. And I won't be so bold as to think that one of my suggestion that might actually lead to a design improvement... but thats part of the purpose of these forums, right? For existing customers (me) to provide feedback on what they would like to see in the future? I hope you don't mind me attempting.

>If you need a CF card rather than an SD card on your "outside RED" usage, then there are plenty 5 US$ converters that will give you an SD slot in the CF card form, so make that SD card a CF card that works for you. The differences in the port itself are technically minimal, except that the form factor is limiting certain stuff.

No, no, no... I don't *need* a CF card. I have no preference for any type of card, actually.

I would *like* a storage mechanism built straight on the camera, rather than having to pay for one separately. Honestly, I don't care how they accomplish this. Seems like a reasonable feature to request.

> I see the point that you don't want to pay 500 US$ for the CF card slot that could have been there right out of the box. Technically that data path must not be the same in terms of internal access as the SD slot has (assumption here) and I believe the CF reader is not just a connector, but some base electronics, as it docs into a port that has other high bandwidth use outstanding.

Yeah, thats certainly possible. I don't know. That's what I was asking, "hey, why did you guys do it this way?"

but then my thread got hijacked, and everyone felt the need to tell me what the SD card did (even though I quoted the manual in my original post), and inform me that I'm the only one who cares, and that my whole thread was a waste of time, and ... so ... ummm, ok. well, nevermind, I guess.

> Last but not least the body is quite cheap, maybe somewhat too cheap after all. I guess RED may be quite interested to earn some money in this area, that may not be had in the body, because they hold to their original promise of pricing for the body. The modularity give them chance to sell some stuff a little more expensive than you would like to. You may argue on every cable or piece of metal or rod. Compared to ARRI stuff its still a deal. IMHO.

OK. I guess that's as good a reason as I'm going to get.

As for the "compared to Arri stuff", as an early adopter and a shameless RED fanboy, I'm certainly not going to argue that the camera isn't a good deal. I'm buying one, so.. ok! I guess we agree.

JT
Austin, Tx

 

[Axel Mertes]

JT,

Agreed, really !!!
Sorry for hijacking...

Axel

 

[Wes Printz]

...from the Red User's Manual, pg. 4:

"An SD Memory card slot is provided below this group of keys, and may be used for camera setup storage and software upgrades. A 512 MB SD card is provided with the camera."

Why? If SD is too slow for capturing footage (which I assume it must be, or most ppl wouldn't need the CF card adapter) then ... why include it at all?

what am I missing?
Red #396

Going back to your original post,

The SD card is NOT used for capturing footage, just a way to update firmware, which yes, could also be done via the CF card (my understanding). Why have a $200 8Gb CF card only to store the firmware, LUTs etc., when less expensive and smaller capacity SD cards will do the same job. Nothing wrong with having options. The SD slot does not take anything away from the camera, but adds to it. The SD slot is tucked out of the way where a built in CF slot would require a larger footprint on the camera.

A reason I can think to have a modular CF reader is for future proofing. I'm not sure if the CF Slot is just that or if there is some circuitry involved, but when CF technology reaches the 100 or plus GB capacity the current readers may not be forward compatible, as the current case of SDHC.

When newer technology arrives on the scene, just replace the CF Module. Imagine the day a 800 Gb RED Drive will replace the CF Module with the same physical dimensions.