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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scratch vs Pablo

Completely agree with Michael and Lucas that it's about teamwork. No one vendor has all the answers (hence genetic engineering and now soft-Sam).
 
Just curious...

How much for each? Pablo, scratch and da vinci...

I'm putting together a new post house. We will open in a year or so. We will start grading with apple's color but we plan on having a dedicated color grading station as soon as possible. I mean, Wich is the best Cost-Benefit on the market today?
 
Marcelo Julião Paiva said:
Just curious...

How much for each? Pablo, scratch and da vinci...

I'm putting together a new post house. We will open in a year or so. We will start grading with apple's color but we plan on having a dedicated color grading station as soon as possible. I mean, Wich is the best Cost-Benefit on the market today?
Click to expand...

A public forum is neither a reliable nor appropriate place to gather price quotes on professional equipment. You should contact your local representative or reseller for all of these devices if you want sensible pricing information.

The devices you mention are not direct competitors. These three devices have vastly different feature sets and considerably different capabilities, making each one more appropriate in certain situations than others. Pablo is basically a full scale editing and compositing system with a sophisticated color corrector added, so it's a very comprehensive "hero box" that performs many functions, a number of which have nothing to do with color correction. It is also quite expensive (contact the manufacturer or reseller for information). Scratch is a software based system that is built around a real time playback engine for file based material (i.e., DPX sequences) that also has very comprehensive support for R3d files. It is a very fast and simple conforming box, and can be equipped with additional modules that allow color correction and limited compositing functionality. It is priced based on your specific requirements and the modules you happen to need (contact Assimilate directly for a pricing quote), and hardware is available from a number of vendors. You say "a DaVinci", but daVinci makes different devices for different needs. The 2K/2K Plus is a hardware based video color correction system that works completely in real time with no rendering, but is limited in that mode to 1920x1080 HD video. It can operate in data mode, using either HiPPi or HSDL connectivity, at up to 2K resolution. daVinci also makes the Resolve line, which is a software based system that is resolution independent. There are multiple models of Resolve with different capabilities and pricing. Contact daVinci for all pricing information on all daVinci devices.

Hope that helps.
 
Thanks M. You did help.

I know I should contact a sales rep. but I live outside the US and I was Just wondering about prices.

I just want to have an Idea. I don't want an actual price quote. So, If anyone has an Idea... please let me know.

Please correct me if i'm wrong... I did some research and this is what I came up with...

Pablo - around 600k
Assimilate - around 80k
DaVinci R4K - ???
 
Mike Most actually said it all. You're comparing apples to oranges.

If you really want to know what a specific Scratch system would cost you should contact Lucas and he'll explain the options, as he did to me.

Scratch is a modular system and depending on what your needs are you buy modules. And you'll want hardware to match.

Speedgrade DI lists for 50k but then you still don't know what a working system would cost.

If you're really interested, contact Lucas.
 
Just a share, we based in Hong Kong, being a freeport we do DI work for the rest of Asia with out sensor nor tax issues.
We have finished 2 full length movies film completely with RED, and with Scatch .r3d graDE, AND CONFORM, THEN 2K .dpx output to 35mm film
A few short films and Trailers, and 2 3d Stereo Musium short film
We have problems, and appreciated Assimilate's team's attentions from both side of the Atlantic
Wish the 4.2 will save us from the Rendering issues

Happy new year
PM is Percy@digitalmagic.com.hk
 
We have 2 full length RED ONE feature finished in 35mm release
and 2 more in process
A few short Mesium pieces in DCI Stero DCP release

Scratch is extensively used for to keep the .r3d worklfow in conform and grading
So is the 3D stereo inter axile alignment, we run also 2 streams of realtime 2K .dpx
2K .dpx is rendered and used for our ari Laser output
Additional .dpx edit and effect was done in Autodesk Smoke 2009 and Flame 2009

So far so good,
just our HD import with the BlueFish has never been success, hope to have some idea and helping hands

Trying the 4.2 now

Percy, Hong Kong
 
Hi, this is my first post. And I sure don't want to sound negative, but Lucas... I too heard from a Quantel operator (i'll tell you who privately) that the Scratch requires over-clocking of the Processor and because of such, burns out the computer every few months... any truth to this "rumor" ?
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Hi, this is my first post. And I sure don't want to sound negative, but Lucas... I too heard from Quantel themselves (i'll tell you who privately) that the Scratch requires over-clocking of the Processor and because of such, burns out the computer every few months... any truth to this "rumor" ?
Click to expand...

Tim i think lucas should give you the right answer but in my experience quantel guys are bs you, i use a scratch system that works perfectly and it has been working on the same hardware for over 2 years now. so... i guess it sounds more like a rumor :nerd:
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Hi, this is my first post. And I sure don't want to sound negative, but Lucas... I too heard from Quantel themselves (i'll tell you who privately) that the Scratch requires over-clocking of the Processor and because of such, burns out the computer every few months... any truth to this "rumor" ?
Click to expand...

Absolute horseshit.

First, there's no requirement to overclock a system for Scratch. The vast majority of systems installed around the world running Scratch are not overclocked.

I've been using Scratch for quite a while now on an overclocked system that I built myself (peice of crap, really, compared to Globalstore & other popular systems Scratch runs on), and I've never had a problem. My processor is stock 2.4ghz, and I've been running it at 3.0ghz with nothing more than stock intel aircooling 24/7 under heavy loads for 1.5 years now with no stability issues. I'd say it crashes maybe once a month or so, and between Scratch, Nuke, & Maya / Renderman all four cores are pegged most of the time.

I also have used overclocked Boxx & Globalstor systems, non of which have shown anything like 'burning out' or other instabilities, and haven't heard of any problems with these highly reputable machines out in the field.

I guess it's not that hard to believe a salesman would be quite willing to spread misinformation about competitors' product to try and make a sale...

cheers,

JT
 
John is right, Scratch does not require any over-clocking of processors for operation. That is a fact that shouldn't be misunderstood by any party. Moreover, once you get acclimated to how Scratch handles R3Ds, it is very easy to avoid crashes for weeks at a time like John was saying.
In agreement with the "Apples to Oranges" discussion, Scratch and Pablo are such different systems that in my opinion, it isn't fair to make direct comparisons between the two. That said, my guess is that the comment made by Quantel is in context to playing back R3D media at full resolution. Scratch in itself is not hardware accelerated, so if you are looking at playing back 4K media out at a 1/2 res debayer, you'll need to overclock your CPU. Many have done this successfully. Admittedly, we have run 2 of our 3 Boxx Tech systems to the point of burnout. But the replacement of these CPUs was expected because we knowingly pushed them well beyond recommended specs and have run over a thousand hours of 1/2res High playback without dropping frames.
***But remember***
This is a 2K debayer of frames to 2K or 1080 completely render free. If 10bit real time, color graded R3D playback is the order, Scratch is the ideal option and over-clocking can be a double edged sword.

For the record, I also have 2 Pablos and a Gene Pool and because they cannot soft-mount R3Ds for real-time playback, there is no direct comparison between the two systems. For us, Scratch and Pablo simply do different things very well.
michael
 
John Tissavary said:
I also have used overclocked Boxx & Globalstor systems, non of which have shown anything like 'burning out' or other instabilities, and haven't heard of any problems with these highly reputable machines out in the field.
Click to expand...
Oh right, i forgot to mention the 2 yr old machine its a BOXX so .... yeah.. it works :bleh:
 
I'm not so sure if it's already late to make a comment about this, but I've been color timing on a Pablo for about 2 years now, and I have recently been introduced to Scratch, and while Pablo is a very strong package in terms of playback speed when it comes to 4K DPX, as a colorist, Scratch has things I wish Pablo had. One example is qualifiers, to Qualify something in Pablo you have to go through a HSL (which is very good) but you need to tune it in, and sometimes you can't get it all, there are other methods too but not that strong, on Scratch, I can select Highlights or blacks as qualifiers and done, awesome on those shots where you have a lot of noise in the blacks, it allows to easily desaturate them. Vectors, LUTs per shots, Pre-gain and Offset on Levels just works wonders, oh, I forgot the most important thing, Scratch has a S-Curve dialer, I have to do that manually on Pablo, so for ingesting, titles, and other things that require a platform that can deliver a stable thoughput Quantel is really solid, on the other hand Scratch gives me more flexibility and tools to achieve what I want in terms of color grading.
 
Diego,

Have you tried Pablo's Input Key? It is similar to Scratch's Highlight key and is very fast and clean. Also Pablo Revolver is pretty much the same as Scratch Vectors.

I agree on the S-Curve dial however, it's really nice and simple.

Ian Vertovec
plastercity colorist
 
Hi Ian,
thanks for the tip! I tried it before, but was unable to actually get good results, I'll try again, maybe I missed something, if it is what I think it is, it actually "locks" what you select, and sometimes I found a lot of HSL artifacts. I actually forgot to mention Revolver, while it is true, it is similar to vectors, many times I couldn't get the results I was looking for, to give you an example, training with an instructor by our side, looking at Revolver, I said, ok, let's make this yellow car look red, and pink was the closest we could get, and we tried a lot, at the end, crashing the blacks a lot on that cascade finally did that, but I was looking for a more gentle method.
 
Thanks guys, very informative... John, you are correct... it is unfortunate, and i wish it ended it there... but it was not a sales guy, it was a Quantel
operator that misled us regards to the actual cost of owning the system. Want to make that clear.

Truth is, we are now trying to sell our Pablo as they also forgot to mention the $200K in support gear and additional storage you need to do feature film work...not to mention, 6 months later, we need to spend another $45K just to upgrade to REV 4 and be able to work with RED... (need to upgrade the PC core, install soft sam etc)

Im a producer, not a post guy much less a colorist, so I feel like a huge idiot for committing to something so expensive... but I trusted an operator who claimed it was gods gift to post production... live and learn... if anybody is seriously looking at getting a PABLO...

We are offering ours for a screaming deal... see the classified section for details.

Scratch is more than suitable for our needs and we dont have the workflow in Portland, especially workflow like you guys at Plaster City have... LOVE YOUR WEBSITE!!... and say hello to Milton... I heard you guys snagged him from Quantel.

respectfully frustrated.
 
Juan_M_P said:
Tim i think lucas should give you the right answer but in my experience quantel guys are bs you, i use a scratch system that works perfectly and it has been working on the same hardware for over 2 years now. so... i guess it sounds more like a rumor :nerd:
Click to expand...

I need to clarify that QUANTEL as a company has been GREAT... and nothng short of phenomenal in their support of our company.

I need to also clarify that it was a Quantel operator that we had the problem with and who misled us as to pricing.

Quantel is an incredible system, but it is very expensive and out of the reach of most users on this board.

I also understand the passionate SCRATCH folks on here, but there are FACTS and then there is the reality...

These are APPLES to ORANGES systems and its like comparing a Mustang GT to A Ferrari... both are race cars... but completely different.

Anyway, it was not my intention to BASH Quantel, on the contrary, it was to determine if some of the Scratch BOXX rumors were true, as even at under $100K its still a lot of money.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
I need to clarify that QUANTEL as a company has been GREAT... and nothng short of phenomenal in their support of our company.

I need to also clarify that it was a Quantel operator that we had the problem with and who misled us as to pricing.

Quantel is an incredible system, but it is very expensive and out of the reach of most users on this board.

I also understand the passionate SCRATCH folks on here, but there are FACTS and then there is the reality...

These are APPLES to ORANGES systems and its like comparing a Mustang GT to A Ferrari... both are race cars... but completely different.

Anyway, it was not my intention to BASH Quantel, on the contrary, it was to determine if some of the Scratch BOXX rumors were true, as even at under $100K its still a lot of money.
Click to expand...
I have nothing against Quanter per se but if someone tells hey quentel guys told me scratch systems hardware burn after 3 months due to the need of overclocking, my answer will be they are bsing you, not the company but the guy who told that. but its good to clarify :)
 
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