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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scratch by Assimilate System

Wow... I just want to say thanks to everyone that has posted on this thread- your thoughts, opinions, and insights have been most helpful. Today I spent some time e-mailing and talking with Luke and Erik from Silverado and they have been very helpful in explaining Scratch and Scratch Cine to me (looks like we are more interested in Scratch Cine). Props to both of them and I encourage anyone that is considering Scratch to give Silverado a call and just talk with them about your options- they will be straight with you!

At this point in time (after reflecting on the responses I have seen in this thread) I am really curious to hear more specifics on what Scratch does really well (where does it 'shine') and also the areas that Scratch isn't as strong (how can the software improve)?

Also, I enjoyed Laguuns posts which gave some alternatives to Scratch. I must say that we are definitely leaning towards Scratch Cine, but what do these other platforms offer that Scratch doesn't offer?

Thanks in advance!
 
lunacie said:
And I have yet to see a convincing argument for debayering prior to grading.
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There are many scenarios where debayer first make sense. In others, debayer last makes sense.

Typcial debayer first workflows are:
- Larger projects which require teams, especially on movies with solid VFX work. Its necessary to collaborate networked for such scenarios, and any bottleneck (as a single debayer station) is limiting there.
- Any 3D Integration, as none of the marketleading 3D applications supports redcode raw so far.
- 4K Colorcorrection/DI with 4K Monitoring. Scratch cant do that in realtime, in order to use the realtime 4K systems (as Clipster or baselight) one needs to debayer first
- Any kind of complex interactive finishing work (tracking, keying, rotoscoping) which requires 4K precision for an 4K master.
- Any kind of multiresolution 2K workflow (as 2K 120fps and 4K 24fps mixed on a timeline), because one would get 1K Quality in lower decode modes.

There are many other scenarios, where debayer last makes perfectly sense as well.


lunacie said:
IMHO, it is always a mistake. Until systems are able to play back 16 bit files in realtime it will continue to not make sense to build the image prior to grading.
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16bit & 4K realtime and VFX do exist since years. one example would be clipster.
http://www.dvs.de/products/video-systems/clipster.html
Its main advantages are 4* the resolution in realtime of 2K systems, 4K realtime effects, and any software and system can access the files.
 
luki said:
Can you explain further? We have a ton of customers doing native R3D workflow for dailies, conform, and finishing. Are you referring to a mixed-media workflow?

Lucas
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If you are mixing resolutions and play back via HD SDI, the halfres high switch, also scales down (and then up again) the 2k & 3k material, last time I checked. If this is fixed now, that's really cool. If not, the solution seems to be to export 4k DPXs of the 2k & 3k material?


lunacie said:
I assume you're refering to tracking & audio? Those are high on the developers priority list, and I'm sure will come down the pipe asap. One thing Assimilate is not shy about, that's releasing updates.

cheers,

JT
Click to expand...


Tracking and audio are two issues.

I have not tried ScratchCine, so this comes with a disclaimer, but for anything color-related, me thinks Scratch without scaffolds is not very usefull. And that's not really because of the secondary CC, but because how you have to treat the RAW files if you want high dynamic range and little noise. You have to use the primary as the one-light stage and lock off that before you correct. First scaffold becomes your real primary.
But that's just my 2c

Where Scratch really shines is in any longform situation, especially if you intend to lay off your master to tape.

A case with a 10 episode television series I was looking into recently involved 800 hours of render to put the one-lighted material online.

With Scratch, you can just start finishing and play back to tape without any more renders.

The ability to do simple comps within Scratch is also a huge timesaver. Scaffolds are a really nice concept.

If you are rendering out files as masters or for composites, Scratch is not that optimal, as you cannot farm out your renders to several nodes and renders takes their time. Currently I have other boxes rendering DPXs quicker than Scratch.

Downside with Scratch?
Customers relate Assimilate to RedCine, and I have several who use that as an argument NOT to get involved in Scratch workflows.

My 4,5 c :)

G
 
luki said:
SCRATCH is the only high-end native R3D workflow right now for current, B16 cameras and firmware. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors. End of discussion.
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The only one available for regular enduser, yes.
However, there are *many* options which do work behind the scenes since quite some time, and are available when directly asked for (R15 for sure, i didnt check out R16 so far as IBC is coming).

For regular customers there will be plenty of news within weeks, Matrix, Autodesk, Iridas, Adobe and several others are ready to go and wait only for the go ahead.

luki said:
And... you have no idea what our sales figures are. ;)
Lucas
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I would estimate xxx, probably ~200-250 seats worldwide.

Thats, by the way, one of my main concerns regarding assimilate - since IBC 2007 i am tempted to buy one, but am still afraid to invest, as i fear that scratch didnt reach the critical userbase.

Sadly, many great niche systems stalled due to this, and 2K & 4K online will be desktop standard within less than 12 months.

We will wait at least until IBC until we make a decision. Basically the 4 market options today are:
i/o cards: Get 5 Adobe CS systems with 2K i/o
nvidia sdi: Get one the Di softwares (as matrix/scratch/speedgrade etc)
finishing systems: Get one of the classic discreet/quantels as smoke after bargaining for the REDCODE support
dedicated hardware/clusters: DVS/filmlight, *sigh*, i am so unwilling to spend another $$$.$$$ with sony for the SRX 4K right now, as we just completed our full HDCAM financing (vtrs/class 1 crts/cameras/NLEs etc) and there are simply to many 4K/3840P montoring options within 1/2 quarters...

BTW: Will you make it to IBC this year? We finally need to have a beer/whisky!
 
As a sidenote, David taylor just confirmed on the Adobe thread, that Cineform cannot access the RAW data through the SDK. This is what I've been fearing for a while, and it means that Scratch is still the ruler of RED RAW for a while...
 
My understanding is that with the SDK, all software vendors have access to pretty much the same stuff under the hood.

If you want to decode and display R3D clips in realtime then you will have to do it the way RED wants it done for now.

You will need to do like Assimilate & Apple and Adobe are doing it...and that is to run the code in software on the CPU. GPU processing is out of the picture. (sorry Iridas and Lustre).

If you want to play back at 1/2 res, high quality, then you'll need a system like my team originally developed at BOXXlabs for playing R3D at 24fps in high quality.

**edit** - 25fps is currently supported ;)
 
Imho

Imho

I have had Scratch Cine for a couple of months now and it has made a serious impact on my business. That half res/high quality de-bayer real time output over HD-SDI is frakkin' HUGE.

I pitch it to clients, and use it within my own hybrid workflows, based on the virtual telecine / virtual deck paradigm. Depending on the sophistication of the client and the budget of the project there are different levels of the "one light" correction pass but in a nutshell: open up the native r3d files in Scratch - with all the RAW color information and all the pixels at hand - grade the material to suit the project (with the DP and a kick ass colorist if the budget allows), then push the footage out over HD-SDI into the tape format of choice or into the AJA io/hd box to create ProRes for FCP folks (sans metadata unfortunately, limited TC support embedded in the SDI). All real time, no rendering, high quality de-bayering. A lot of clients like this workflow because once they have it in their preferred tape format or ProRes the rest of the post process is right in their comfort zone.

NOTE: Obviously there are cheaper ways for FCP centric projects to create ProRes media from RedCode using RED's free tools and get virtually the same results, BUT, and this is a big BUT, Scratch Cine offers a huge speed advantage. I also employ a JL Cooper Spectrum control surface with the rings and wheels so I can grade roughly twice as many clips per hour as I could with a mouse or tablet, YMMV.

Scratch is a great Digital Process solution but it has its limitations. I wish the embedded editing app was more fully featured. I am hopeful that over time they will dramatically expand the xml support for conforming creative editorial built in FCP. It still chaps my ass that I cannot access the audio directly from the r3d files - in their defense that is probably more a RED issue than an Assimilate issue - and nobody else can do it either, but whatever the reason its still annoying.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I have had Scratch Cine for a couple of months now and it has made a serious impact on my business. That half res/high quality de-bayer real time output over HD-SDI is frakkin' HUGE.
Click to expand...

Great business model Blair, and scratch is an excellent choice for such applications.

we offer similar services - by using san/network and many quadcores feeding to several aja/blackmagics. different approach, same result.

what i really miss is an smoke-class system with redcode raw, a complete finishing system, and this, is not what speedgrade or scratch provide so far.
 
Bump...

Anyone aware of a good contact in Los Angeles for actually purchasing a Scratch?

Not sure if Lucas is in town.

You can contact me off list.

Thanks,

Sean
 
Endgroove said:
Bump...

Anyone aware of a good contact in Los Angeles for actually purchasing a Scratch?

Not sure if Lucas is in town.

You can contact me off list.

Thanks,

Sean
Click to expand...

Lucas is in Amsterdam, but I am checking email at least twice a day... : )

Please contact me offlist at lucas (at) assimilateinc (dot) com.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
Hi all; da Vinci just released and is shipping their real time (24fps) fully de-bayered, full bit depth native r3D grading with mixed resolutions and mixed file formats on the timeline. With the appropiate hardware colorists have all the RED controls and all the power of the Resolve with 15+ layers of grade in 4K at 24fps.

They demonstrated the operation on a R100 at NAB on their stand and at 4K at the Sony 4K demo.
Peter
 
Resolve grades R3D

Resolve grades R3D

Depending on hardware config, it's half res (2K) no debayer on the base system, R100 @24fps; up to native 4K full debayer on the 4K system with full RGB 4K display @ 24fps.

Customer tests of the mid range R350 show 2K full debayer (from the 4K R3D source) @ 24fps with 15 or more layers of color correction, defocus, power windows, object tracking, etc. etc. Images are extracted from the R3D at the full bit depth offered by the SDK and Resolve uses 32 bit floating point in GPU for the grading.

Lots more to come.
 
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