SCRATCH and its non-realtime in 4K.

[Martin Ludwig]

I think this is the one.

http://www.dvs.de/Brochures/DVS_DI_Team.pdf
and this one
http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/products/baselight

High performance
Real-time effects up to 4K RGB file sequences
Multiple video formats with real-time converting
Real-time JPEG2000 conversion
Internal RAID-5 protected high data rate storage

High quality:
Real uncompressed video up to 4K RGB 16 bit
Real-time effects in 16 bit
Original native content is directly used for real-time processing


Though I don't know how much it is. Can't find any prices again.
Lagun, do you know the price of CLIPSTER complete system?

http://www.dvs.de/english/products/...e/english/products/videosystems/clipster.html

price is about 90K EUR full equipped.

 

[laguun]

Just as a point of information:

DVS clipster does realtime uncompressed 4K it's true.
But this is 4K RGB completely uncompressed.

No, DVS supports also RAW 4K -and- uncompressed -and- J2K DCI.
Uncompressed is important for multi-staged colorcorrection, VFX, CGI etc. In 10, 12, 16 bit.

Furthermore, DVS no only supports uncompressed, raw, but also DCI DSM (Digital Source Master) and DCP (Digital Cinema Package).

filmlight baselight is "only" 4K uncompressed RT however.

Not 4K Compressed Redcode Bayer Raw.

DVS supports realtime RAW.

RED decided to no allow in DVS (or anyone else) in so far - they said that they have to honor their agreement with apple to not allow other companies supporting the red camera until april.
Recently we have been informed by them that RED is not stable/finished enough with their redcode raw to be supported by 3hrd parties.

Thats main reason why many customers (as us) are getting restless regarding the post workflow.
RED -needs- stronger and more support from the post industry, especially from the even more powerful systems and players.
And their strategy to get this is not really clear. It would be very reassuring and helpful if red would outline a -basic- timeline for their post workflow. The cross-platform puzzle

Realtime RAW workflows, -including 4K- meanwhile are supported, by
IRIDAS (speedgrade HD, speedgrade, DI, framecycler, framecycler DI, venue): cineform
DVS (Clipster) : cineform
ADOBE (CS 3/ premiere pro, after FX, encore) : cineform
SI 2K and SI 2K mini : cineform
DALSA Origin : cineform
WEISSBERG Speedcam : cineform
VISION Phantom 65 : cineform
and many more... (autodesk/discreet combustion, eyeon digital fusion etc).

Furthermore these raw workflows are OSX and Windows, AVI and MOV, stable and realtime. No matter if RED wants to offer that level of performance themselves or integrate with cineform, this is the market right now: The camera raw marketleader and the post raw marketleader products dont talk to each another...

So regardless of the specifics of Scratch, a much less hardware dependent system. There is no realtime 4K Redcode system in existence... AFAIK... YET.
IBloom

Yes. Thats a big problem. Especially as 4K RAW is not only feasibly, but reality.
And 4K RGB with display and i/o is offered at DVS since 2005, 3 years ago.

Anyhow, this NAB we will see several new 4K (also RAW hardware) systems, and hopefully RED can lift its REDCODE embargo towards 3hrd parties ASAP.

 

[Andrew M.]

Laguun, does any of these systems supports playing RT 4K from 16 bit TIF sequence?

Since I convert REDRAW immediately to 16 bit TIF and then use it for all of our grading needs I discovered how good it is to work with TIF. Even 10 bit log DPX is not giving me as much of flexibility and headroom as TIF does

 

[Harry Clark]

Luki,
Not a knock on Scratch, but I DO wish that Red would open up the r3d to other companies like Iridas. I can wrap my brain around the interface in Speedgrade. I could use the on-set product ($600) to grade a frame here and a frame there, and pass along the settings and pictures via email to the colorist who's handling the project's footage. Even if he's using a hardware product like DaVinci there would be a reference, like on a 35mm project when we send a digital still or a paper Polaroid (now I'm dating myself)
I know that the current freeware products from Red will do this but I cannot stand the UI.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[laguun]

Laguun, does any of these systems supports playing RT 4K from 16 bit TIF sequence?

Since I convert REDRAW immediately to 16 bit TIF and then use it for all of our grading needs I discovered how good it is to work with TIF. Even 10 bit log DPX is not giving me as much of flexibility and headroom as TIF does

yes, clipster handles 4K 16bit RGB in realtime. I quote:

High performance
Real-time effects up to 4K RGB file sequences
Multiple video formats with real-time converting
Real-time JPEG2000 conversion
Internal RAID-5 protected high data rate storage

High quality:
Real uncompressed video up to 4K RGB 16 bit
Real-time effects in 16 bit
Original native content is directly used for real-time processing

Open platform:
Windows® workstation with direct capture into NTFS Windows® file system
Real-time support of graphic file sequences like DPX, TIFF, Cineon®, TGA, BMP etc.
Fibre Channel connection for additional storages like a SAN
OpenFX effect plug-in interface

 

[laguun]

price is about 90K EUR full equipped.

the smaller 2K configurations start at ~55K iirc and can be upgraded to 4K i/o, 4K RT and 4K networked RT storage - however my last price quote was sept 2007.

 

[laguun]

Hi laguun

Let's forget about Scratch is the only one that supports R3D, let's ASSUME that it doesn't have R3D support. And obviously price isn't a problem for you.

Scratch can't display 4K, that's the limitation, alright. By assuming that and comparing 4K RT RGB from Scratch vs other products. How do you think of its performance, Color grading feature, plugins, reconform feature, workflow, etc. Is other product better or Scratch better ?

I think scratch is one of the very good systems in the midrange, in power and functionality. Its UI is fast (requires some learning as with any dedicated non-standard UI), its color correction tools are responsive and good (secondaries could be a bit more powerful, but thats just me), and if offers some good added functionality (tracker and masks are good), also it support nice external effects. The integration of consoles (cooper etc) is also good. shortcomings are minimal audio, very rudimentary editing, then (i dont know if that has been changed since sept 07) stereoscoping & 3D blocks/brakes down
other functions (secondaries). Datamanagement seemed good (people who are using it often like it -very- much) but i couldnt look to deep into it. Technical quality seemed very solid (no magic gamma/value shifts ala apple) but no ultra-quality in realtime as 16bit etc. Please keep in mind that i only had 2 sessions and that was august & september 2007, so things might have improved. Integration with external programs (as AE/combustion/fusion/nuke/maya/max/xsi) seemed less powerful (but a decent inhouse programmer could probably script that).

I would see it not as "finishing" system as discreet smoke, but also not as "only" di, somewhere in between, a good product.

Iridas 2K is only 2K and it isn't 4K. What product of Iridas that support 4K (not 8K) ?

If its "4K" as with all nvidia systems (aka 4k files, but no 4K display and no 4K i/o) then it would be speedgrade DI, which handles 4K files the same way scratch does.
If 4K display is required it would be speedgrade Di with venue, but that would be more expensive than a scratch.
What is important to understand is that cineform can do RT 4K raw and speedgrade supports cineform.

From price point, what kind of product that you think is on the same level with Scratch and better.
Regards

I wouldt want to say "better", as this depends on many factors. All systems have advantages and shortcomings which make them more them more appealing or less appealing to certain users. I would see scratchs strenghts in shortform and longform in 2K mastering, rather less networked installations (<5 people on post on the same system). Alternatives on the pricelevel are iridas speedgrade, dvs clipster, autodesk/discreet smoke, matrix chrome.

For very complex pure shortform and indies with more time than the service agency biz and a 4K fullfeature i would rather recommend desktop software packages (as Adobe/Avid/Autodesk/AD with combustion).

For //top-end// colorcorrection i would consider the smaller filmlights baselights. For network centric facilities which aim at 4K i would recommend starting with a smaller clipster.

I think i will compile all the information about prices, hardware, os, functions, installed user base, business models, interfacing etc in one list (or maybe even a small webpage) pretty soon, as i am basicly talking about these topics daily with customers.

 

[Simon Blackledge]

Any ideas on the cost of baselight HD ?

S

 

[laguun]

Any ideas on the cost of baselight HD ?

S

it was starting at somewhere ~110/120K€, iirc, but dont quote me - i was just asking a tech at IBC and his focus was truelight and baselight 4/8.

 

[Simon Blackledge]

Thanks Laguun,

Can't work out the difference between HD and One :-/

 

[laguun]

Thanks Laguun,

Can't work out the difference between HD and One :-/

1080P and 2K mainly IIRC.
price as well.

 

[laguun]

Same there. Iridas has the price for SpeedGrade HD on their website but not for SpeedGrade DI. That's not so uncommon as some people want it to be.

Iridas has Speedgrade and Speedgrade DI prices on their website, 9999€ and 33499€.

The 4K (and up) version have no list price for an obvious reason - they have different 4K/(horizontal 8K/10K) output options which run on another system, clusters to be precise, and that is only available custom-tailored.

Our delivery horizontal 8K is in the planning stage right now and we have to think about many thing: do we want use SMPTE 292M or SMPTE 372M (or even SMPTE 424M), or do we want to use DVI/HDMI, will we use -8- clustered (or SLId) Quadro 4/5600 (which then would allow edge blending, 30P 8K and 3D) or do we go for smaller quadros, leaving 30P out but lowering cost... Iridas -has- to consult there, as there are -huge- differences between what pixar, moma, lucasfilm or disneyland playback preferences are and what, as example, we as a small/midhouse want.