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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet X: Future improvements wish List :)

In order:
1) +2 Stops of Dynamic range with Dragon
2) Better color science (Film emulation)
3) 24fps 5k
4) 120fps in 2k
5) 48fps 4k/HDRx

---

6) A FF35 chip camera down the line as either an upgrade or a healthy second hand demand for used Scarlet-Xs.
 
Tommi Lähdesmäki said:
I played with the specs a bit,


Code: 
[B]Scarlet-X [/B]          W       H      depth      fps       comp     ratio      bits/sec        bits left         bytes/sec
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[LEFT] [B][COLOR=seagreen]Normal[/COLOR][/B]
[/LEFT]
 
              5K    5120    2700    12        12        5        1,90      398 131 200      41 868 800        49 766 400
              4K    4096    2160    12        25        6        1,90      [COLOR=red]442 368 000[/COLOR]      -2 368 000        55 296 000
             QHD    3840    2160    12        30        7        1,78      426 569 143      13 430 857        53 321 143
              3K    3072    1620    12        48        7        1,90      409 506 377      30 493 623        51 188 297
              2K    2048    1080    12        60        4        1,90      398 131 200      41 868 800        49 766 400
              1K    1024     540    12       120        3        1,90      265 420 800     174 579 200        33 177 600
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR=yellowgreen]Should be possible 50/200fps [/COLOR]                                                                                    
                                                                                                              
              3K    3072    1620    12        [COLOR=darkorange]50[/COLOR]        7        1,90      426 569 143      13 430 857        53 321 143
              1K    1024     540    12       200        3        1,90      [COLOR=red]442 368 000[/COLOR]      -2 368 000        55 296 000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR=yellowgreen]720/1080P somewhat useless, if resolved (80%) ?[/COLOR]

            720P    1280     720    12       120        3        1,78      [COLOR=red]442 368 000[/COLOR]      -2 368 000        55 296 000
           1080P    1920    1080    12        70        4        1,78      435 456 000       4 544 000        54 432 000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR=yellowgreen]Resolved 720/1080P (80%)[/COLOR]

            1.6K    1600     900    12       120        5        1,78      414 720 000      25 280 000        51 840 000
            2.4K    2400    1350    12        60        7        1,78      333 257 143     106 742 857        41 657 143
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR=yellowgreen]What if 2.40:1[/COLOR]

       5K (2.40)    5120    2133    12        16        5        2,40      419 364 864      20 635 136        52 420 608
       4K (2.40)    4096    1706    12        30        6        2,40      419 266 560      20 733 440        52 408 320
       3K (2.40)    3072    1280    12        60        7        2,40      404 450 743      35 549 257        50 556 343     [B][COLOR=lemonchiffon][Scroll down for more][/COLOR][/B]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR=yellowgreen]HDRx 25/30/60, [I] 3K 120fps  :)[/I][/COLOR]
                                                                                  
       5K (2.40)    5120    2133    12        50        15       2,40      436 838 400       3 161 600        54 604 800
       4K (2.40)    4096    1706    12        60        12       2,40      419 266 560      20 733 440        52 408 320
       3K (2.40)    3072    1280    12       [COLOR=cyan]120[/COLOR]        13       2,40      435 562 338       4 437 662        54 445 292

[COLOR=red](over max bitrate 440Mbits/sec, 4K [COLOR=seagreen]4096 normal[/COLOR] is already like this) [/COLOR]
Calculations may be wrong, no guarantee.
Click to expand...


Tommi, thanks for the excellent effort. I think that 2k 100fps and 3k 50 should be possible without stretching it too far. Fellow future Scarlet owners have to understand that while it says 2k, 3k and 4k in Scarlet specs, this actually means, in true resolution, if I recall correctly, for example, 4K equals more or less 3.2k, 3k would mean (Please correct me if I'm wrong) 2.4k, 2k a bit bellow 1080p, and so on, like Tommi says in his table with "usable 1080p". So for optimal real world output you would want faster frame rates for the equal or above 1080p competition. That's why 3k and 2k should be our faster fps target. I think its unrealistic to ask for faster fps for 4k and 5k. (maybe in a year or 2 :)
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Downsamples won't happen. THAT really takes computing power...

Not even on the Epic (I know it was mentioned at some point, but hasn't been drifting around on any current roadmaps I have seen...)

In practical terms, that would be like adding 2 rockets to the processingpower, and the Rockets cost 4,5k each.... :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response - that's a shame though. I guess Redcode is just so much more information...cause obviously Canon and other cameras down-sample their 4K sensors to 1080p or 720p at 60fps, but I obviously know that Redcode raw is MUCH more info per second than H264 or MPEG 4:2:2.

Still a shame though. Would love to be able to shoot even 60p on the Scarlet at 1080p without cropping more than the 4K Super35 part of the sensor.

I can dream. (Certainly didn't stop me from placing a Scarlet order 2 days ago :)
 
In the Scarlet Announcement thread, under the FAQs post (second to last) Jim says:

Jannard said:
Why can't I shoot 24fps 4K HDRx?
Data rates and processing power. *We are working on a future version of HDRx with modified compression to enable this possibility. It will be a firmware upgrade and free.
Click to expand...

The cool part is bolded.

Now it'd be interesting if similar compression logic could be applied to 5k as well for 24/25fps recording. I'm figuring 5k is 40% more pixels than 4k, but 4k HDRx is 200% more pixels than just 4k since it's literally two 4k streams. I would imagine the compensation would be lower quality colour information (that's what's being compressed, right?), but it'd still be a step ahead of any baked in footage. In other words, there are instances where it would be more effective than a lower compressed 4k stream; like footage that is gonna be heavily noise reduced to compensate for unnaturally high ISOs (like 12800) or for astrophotography/astrovideography which doesn't have too much colour info to begin with.

Something tells me they would have announced this if it were possible though... But then again, the R1 got a free and unexpected 0.5k boost in resolution... You can never really know what RED is gonna do. And because of that you can't go wrong just accepting that 4k/24p and 3k/24pHDRx could very well be the max we're gonna get. Personally, I'm more than content with what SX currently offers.
 
Personally 120fps @ 2K is where I would start the wish list. I know with the Scarlet -X you get 5K and 4K as a bonus, but with limited frame rates and very limited HDRx implementation.
 
120fps @ 3k , 2k would be fine if it only had the crop factor of 3k.
If the Scarlet can be upgraded\unlocked down the line to produce 120fps @ 3k I would place my order and join the Red family now.
I have $15000 and I can only hope that Red can deliver this before anyone else.
 
Last edited:
its really amazing how ungrateful people can be for stuff... How many of you guys realize that having a 24fps 4k camera alone... allows you to shoot at the quality of what films have been shot at for nearly 100 years on film. This is mind blowing for the price, and yet people are pissing and moaning over they need this and that. You mostly dont need HDRx with the new sensor... yet we get it at 3k just in case, how often do you really need 60 fps? for narrative filmmaking you rarely over crank... other than action, but most of us indy guys do dramas, cause we are arty farty weirdos, and slo mo doesnt usually fit in something that is already so slow and intimate. What I am getting at is realize that this camera is honestly a camera you could shoot on for the next 15 years and your quality still be fairly relevant... thats a grand a year... pretty sure you can pay that off, even if your not in production for a living. This is the first time I have bought a camera in my career ( nearly 9 years ) and felt like if I never got another cam I could probably be just fine with this one. Its a grip of money to spend but a very liberating camera to have.

Last job I directed we had A cam as epic and b a dslr... granted we were delivering in 1080 so it makes it a little easier to do this, but there is no question the DSLR's can not compare in image quality. So just stop complaining. If you cant afford you just cant there are plenty of great options... its more important to go shoot than it is to complain over getting this frame rate or that and you would be willing to go buy... that doesnt make you a better filmmaker. Making a film with what is at your finger tips is what makes you a creative filmmaker.

I think my rants over... for now.
 
Come on Ryan who is moaning? This is a wish list, not a " I'm upset with the current Scarlet and will only buy it if" thread. It's called constructive input- the mounts suggestion, for example, will not help many Epic users but would trully help the low budget independents. No one is complaining, just saying what they would wish could be reasonably implemented by software and hardware- in my case the mounts.

Take it easy!
 
Ryan Hamblin said:
its really amazing how ungrateful people can be for stuff... How many of you guys realize that having a 24fps 4k camera alone... allows you to shoot at the quality of what films have been shot at for nearly 100 years on film. This is mind blowing for the price, and yet people are pissing and moaning over they need this and that. You mostly dont need HDRx with the new sensor... yet we get it at 3k just in case, how often do you really need 60 fps? for narrative filmmaking you rarely over crank... other than action, but most of us indy guys do dramas, cause we are arty farty weirdos, and slo mo doesnt usually fit in something that is already so slow and intimate. What I am getting at is realize that this camera is honestly a camera you could shoot on for the next 15 years and your quality still be fairly relevant... thats a grand a year... pretty sure you can pay that off, even if your not in production for a living. This is the first time I have bought a camera in my career ( nearly 9 years ) and felt like if I never got another cam I could probably be just fine with this one. Its a grip of money to spend but a very liberating camera to have.

Last job I directed we had A cam as epic and b a dslr... granted we were delivering in 1080 so it makes it a little easier to do this, but there is no question the DSLR's can not compare in image quality. So just stop complaining. If you cant afford you just cant there are plenty of great options... its more important to go shoot than it is to complain over getting this frame rate or that and you would be willing to go buy... that doesnt make you a better filmmaker. Making a film with what is at your finger tips is what makes you a creative filmmaker.

I think my rants over... for now.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Great Post. +1
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Downsampling already happens... it's what drives the SDI and HDMI ports.
Click to expand...

The problem with downsampling is that the sensor data has to be demosaiced and so it's not RAW any more. I remember this discussion about the 2/3" Scarlet and we were told that the may be able to do a scaled 1080p RGB mode but it wouldn't be RAW and the datarate would actually be higher than if you shot 3K RAW. So you gain field of view but at a cost of space on your recording media and RAW flexibility.
 
Andrew Gentle said:
The problem with downsampling is that the sensor data has to be demosaiced and so it's not RAW any more. I remember this discussion about the 2/3" Scarlet and we were told that the may be able to do a scaled 1080p RGB mode but it wouldn't be RAW and the datarate would actually be higher than if you shot 3K RAW. So you gain field of view but at a cost of space on your recording media and RAW flexibility.
Click to expand...

I see your point - although that's actually a trade I'd willingly make. I rarely have to do lots of over-crank work, just a few shots here and there, so it's okay if those shots take up more space...and I'd gladly give up the RAW on those few shots if I could actually use a wide angle lens effectively or not have to be super far away from the subject or didn't have to be forced to deal with the depth of field deepening inherent to smaller sensor crop....

But this is just a wish. A wish I would love if RED implemented.

I already ordered it...so it's not like it was a deal breaker. :)
 
I only have two future feature requests:

- 24p@5k (obviously have to monkey around at the datarates to get this)
- 120fps at 1080p - perfect for slow motion, and I figure if it can't be done at 3k (a'la 'old scarlet) maybe 1080p has a lower threashold where this might be achievable?
 
Adam Howden said:
Hey Sergio,

I too would like to see a 3K speed nudge up to 50 fps, in PAL land this is critical! :-)
Click to expand...

+1 I think they fix this soon. would not think they forgot us in pal land.
 
Brian Lehrer said:
Thanks for the response - that's a shame though. I guess Redcode is just so much more information...cause obviously Canon and other cameras down-sample their 4K sensors to 1080p or 720p at 60fps, but I obviously know that Redcode raw is MUCH more info per second than H264 or MPEG 4:2:2.

Still a shame though. Would love to be able to shoot even 60p on the Scarlet at 1080p without cropping more than the 4K Super35 part of the sensor.

I can dream. (Certainly didn't stop me from placing a Scarlet order 2 days ago :)
Click to expand...

Canon DSLRs do not downsample their images - they acquire the lower resolution motion images by line skipping. (We all wish they achieved it by downsampling.)
 
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