Scarlet X Dragon in 2021?

[Eduardo Jed Camara]

Hi guys, I asked this in the Blackmagic community so I thought I would ask this in the Red community as well to get views from both sides.

I own a Red Scarlet X Dragon(DSMC1), I am debating whether in 2021 I am better off switching to the Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro (Probably G1 but would consider G2 if I can afford it).

Theres a few things I find annoying with my camera:
- Lack of colour focus peaking, yeah I can use an eternal monitor, but what's the point of me having this nice 7 inch Red touch monitor if I am having to look at another monitor on the side when focus pulling?
- 5 minute black shading
- The Menu system
- File structure, not sure if I'm doing something wrong but I always randomly get duplicates of certain clip on the timeline? Annoying when I am syncing audio

I have downloaded test footage from both cameras, I love the filmic look of my Scarlet Dragon, but the Ursa is also very nice in a different way. The Ursa is definitely much cleaner, the Red needs more light, but the grain doesn't bother me too much as long as I stay below iso 800(1000 at a push)

My b-cam is a Blackmagic pocket 4K and I've used the two cameras together fine, but i've never had to use them together in the same scene where they have to match as close as possible such as an interview, but obviously I imagine the URSA would be a much closer match.

The type of work I do on these cameras is narrative films and branded content, but I am also starting to do more documentaries, so I will be filming interviews where I will need to match the camera as close as possible.

I also have an FS7 which I mainly use for live filming and event type work.

 

[PatrickWebb]

Hi Eduardo,

The UMP and Scarlet are kind of two different beasts. The Ursa is really ready to go, whereas the Scarlet, as you know, you need to add modules, which can be costly. The UMP has build in ND's, which is another + for flexibility. That doesn't mean that the UMP isn't a cheap option, by far, but cheaper than the Scarlet. I think you can still get a good price for you Dragon, $6K-USD and that goes towards a new box, right? if selling it is what you need to do to keep business rolling. If you have a demand for quick easy deliverable content that looks great off the bat into the hands of the editor or client, then you might have to look back over your business plan and do a garage sale.

Although it is hard to give a definitive answer and as much as my opinion matters, it is just a little fish in the sea of opinions. However, if you are doing run and gun type of work, then the URSA is something you should def consider. Again, there has been reliability issues with the UMP, which can be very frustrating. I have a colleague who had problem after problem; Screen freezing, no start ups, dead XLR port, long service wait times and no replacement camera ... that isn't good for business or the sleep! However, I know others who've not had a single issue. So, it is the luck of the draw. The sensor also delivers a beautiful image. meh.

You have the problem, too, that the DSMC1 is not RED serviceable anymore, if something were to go wrong. You have up weigh up the demand from your side and the camera's.

The FS7 is def more designed for that type of work. Why not sell all of your cameras and get an FX6 and a FX3 as a Bcam? I mean, there so many good choices out there ... we're kind of spoiled.

This also depends on what other gear you own too... glass reinvestment, maybe?

Just look at exactly what you need in a camera and then shop around. My best best is the FX6 & FX3 combo. Those cameras are way up there and deliver great results.

I hope this helps, somewhat?

Cheers!

 

[Eduardo Jed Camara]

Hey Patrick, thanks for the reply. I would definitely consider the FX6, but I'm just really spoilt by the Raw workflow of Red and Blackmagic and the small file sizes even in raw. I'm not in love with the image from the FX6(as nice as it is) compared to the Red and URSA personally. But I definitely considered the FX6 as a great option that is popular and in demand.

My plan was to sell the Red and then own:
Ursa Pro + BMPCC4K(maybe upgrade this to the 6K Pro) which would work well for my narrative film projects but also documentary and corporate video.
Then still keep the FS7 for the times when clients specify Sony or do more run and gun work, which isn't that often actually because of covid. My bread and butter work is really corporate video.

I would also have enough left over to complete my cine-modded Zeiss Contax Prime set(I currently have the 28 2.8 and 50 1.4)

Just don't wanna jump the gun and sell my scarlet dragon and regret it later on. If it was a DSMC2 I would definitely keep it, but it's the fact that it's DSMC1 is making me think is it best to go for a more modern camera...

 

[Fred Potts]

We have gone from the IN N OUT Burger World to McDonald World meaning we now have so many choices for cameras. I have the Red Epic Dragon 6k. I don't find any issues with the camera where others would and the reason why is I come from the ARRI 35mm film world where EVERYTHING took awhile to set up and everything is Manual. With the Epic, I use the SmallHD 702 for my tight manual focus (no auto focus) and I TREAT this camera like I did with the ARRI 35mm as all setups takes awhile and is manual.

I'm just thinking out loud and there are many, many others on this forum that has so much more knowledge on these cameras then I do that will be able to give you much better advice.

I think matching BM with BM is a good way to go, this way your footage has a much better chance of matching up and you should be able to move much quickly as setup times and filming as they call it run and gun.

OR - as for the Scarlet camera, maybe go with the Komodo as your B camera or try and jump up to the next stage of RED and use your Scarlet as your B camera? I posted a question about B camera as I'm still learning this Red myself. I have decided that if I'm going to go with a B camera I will go with the Komodo. Keeping RED with RED footage.

I guess the main question one has to ask himself is; what is the final look you want from your films? That look will direct you to the right camera and the learning curve you may need to adjust to using it.

 

[Joshua Wilson]

I can upgrade your Scarlet Dragon to an Epic Dragon if that would make the decision easier.

 

[PatrickWebb]

Hey Patrick, thanks for the reply. I would definitely consider the FX6, but I'm just really spoilt by the Raw workflow of Red and Blackmagic and the small file sizes even in raw. I'm not in love with the image from the FX6(as nice as it is) compared to the Red and URSA personally. But I definitely considered the FX6 as a great option that is popular and in demand.

My plan was to sell the Red and then own:
Ursa Pro + BMPCC4K(maybe upgrade this to the 6K Pro) which would work well for my narrative film projects but also documentary and corporate video.
Then still keep the FS7 for the times when clients specify Sony or do more run and gun work, which isn't that often actually because of covid. My bread and butter work is really corporate video.

I would also have enough left over to complete my cine-modded Zeiss Contax Prime set(I currently have the 28 2.8 and 50 1.4)

Just don't wanna jump the gun and sell my scarlet dragon and regret it later on. If it was a DSMC2 I would definitely keep it, but it's the fact that it's DSMC1 is making me think is it best to go for a more modern camera...

I totally get what you mean here. You could def go down the path, as Mr. Potts mentioned, of picking up a Komodo and that wouldnt be a dumb option as well. The look that the RED cameras provide are special. You could go down BM route, too. I've been there and gone through many of their cameras ~ the BMCC 2.5k (3 of them) an Ursa mini 4k and pocket 4k ~ and I don't have them anymore for a good reason. It was too much inconsistency in their cameras that let me down at the end of the day. I found that the 2.5K CC was ok and gave pleasing results in many situations, but the life of the internal battery was 20 mins max. Then the UM4K was great in studio and well exposed situations, but killed me on the FPN in the blacks and when underexposed ~ really dissapointing sometimes. But when lit well, it made beautiful images. Then the P4K is a great budget camera, but when I got it to a good working stage, as in I could use it on jobs, I spent already 50.000NOK or like approx $6K~USD. And that is a bit sum for a supposed budget camera.

I mean, you don't have to rig it out, but for it to be field ready for some jobs, you kind of need it. It was too many cables and adapters for my liking. I sold it all and got an Epic and Scarlet MX and with all the bits. Both cameras are cross compatible with the modules and most of all give me RAW and have the same sensors ~ so my pictures match. That is the most important thing for me.

Again, pros and cons to all.

I love the solid and consistent image quality from my MX sensors and I'm able, knowing the quirks of both cameras, to produce compelling and beautiful imagery. I get my 95fps +\- in 5K FF and higher in cropped modes and that is great enough for most of my work applications. When that is not needed, the Scarlet gets the attention most of the time for quick headshots, photography at 5KFF, youtube content, and other smaller budet pieces that don't require the higher framerates, etc. I also use the Atomos Sumo to pull a 1080p signal from the cameras if I want fast moving files and don't have time to grade. Again, this is my workflow.

You could also go down the Canon route and get 2x C70's, as Canon produces a pretty image right out of camera, from my experience.

 

[PatrickWebb]

To continue my response ...

I would also have enough left over to complete my cine-modded Zeiss Contax Prime set(I currently have the 28 2.8 and 50 1.4)

Just don't wanna jump the gun and sell my scarlet dragon and regret it later on. If it was a DSMC2 I would definitely keep it, but it's the fact that it's DSMC1 is making me think is it best to go for a more modern camera...

It is good that you haven't invested in one type of mount... although I have primarily EF Canon mount, I find it to be the most versatile across the systems. I use a Canon Stills camera and then my Reds both have EF mounts and I've a PL mount as well for the bigger productions jobs that need the dutyglass.

Again, it is always checking yourself and seeing what is your true gut feeling. If you want to stick with RED, then stick. Why not pick up another Scarlet or Epic for you collaborative efforts? Then you can mix all you DSMC1 modules and components together if you need a different set up, depending the job? Again, that is what I've done with my MX DSMC1's and I find it to be versatile enough for 90% of my work. The other 10% is orientated around special requests that are in want of borrowing or renting those desired requests.

Again, you could really go anywhere at this point. But go with your gut feeling! It is 9/10 times the best decision you will make, even if it makes you nervous.

Keep the Scarlet. It's a great professional tool that delivers brilliant images.

My 2cents.

Peace.

 

[PatrickWebb]

We have gone from the IN N OUT Burger World to McDonald World meaning we now have so many choices for cameras. I have the Red Epic Dragon 6k. I don't find any issues with the camera where others would and the reason why is I come from the ARRI 35mm film world where EVERYTHING took awhile to set up and everything is Manual. With the Epic, I use the SmallHD 702 for my tight manual focus (no auto focus) and I TREAT this camera like I did with the ARRI 35mm as all setups takes awhile and is manual.

I'm just thinking out loud and there are many, many others on this forum that has so much more knowledge on these cameras then I do that will be able to give you much better advice.

I think matching BM with BM is a good way to go, this way your footage has a much better chance of matching up and you should be able to move much quickly as setup times and filming as they call it run and gun.

OR - as for the Scarlet camera, maybe go with the Komodo as your B camera or try and jump up to the next stage of RED and use your Scarlet as your B camera? I posted a question about B camera as I'm still learning this Red myself. I have decided that if I'm going to go with a B camera I will go with the Komodo. Keeping RED with RED footage.

I guess the main question one has to ask himself is; what is the final look you want from your films? That look will direct you to the right camera and the learning curve you may need to adjust to using it.

I agree with you here, Fred. Everything takes time. Unless you are doing the ENG missions, where timing is on the pulse and the cameras are ready as one unit to go, then most of us do get at least an hour (always depends, but better with more!) set up time for whatever it is we are creating. Therefore doing things like your blackshade could be done at home, as long as the temp and conditions are similar, then that is 10-15 mins you can save on the field. Although, when I do this on the location, I just set up the camera first, let it warm up – as I begin to get other things from the car/van, set up light stands, etc; come back and start the blackshading, go off again and conintue with the other tasks at hand. When blackshade is done, I do the checks with the ISO trick and the 1:1 zoom on the monitor to observe for any fpn or hot pixes, etc. That is most likely a no brainer for me. As long as the working temp is similar, then there is not real issue there. I don't find it frustrating, just working it into my set up plan is crucial.

As for the good old 35mm camera systems, then, yes, you are demanded to take your time. Of course, there is not really much difference in time needed, just a different workflow and more care for the film cartridge as for digital hardware: REDMAGS.

Film Production takes time.