Scarlet-W vs Epic-W Helium Decision

[Tim Milgram]

First and foremost, I would like to apologize if the answer is already somewhere in these forums, but I spent some time looking for this and can't seem to find it. If you can direct me to that post I'll happily delete this thread and be on my way!

That said:

I'm a current Scarlet-W owner and the only drawback I see to that camera is the low-light performance. Coming from the A7s world there are simply less projects that I am able to use my Scarlet-W on as it requires a considerably higher lighting/crew budget in order to use. Shooting at above 1600iso isn't really a great idea on the Scarlet-W and I frequently land in the 1600-3200 range on the A7s.

That said, with the release of the Epic-W Helium 8k, the low-light performance on that sensor is substantially improved, potentially with a usable 3200iso (if this is incorrect, please inform me).

The two drawbacks, it seems, are the following:

1) The equivalent crop factor to Scarlet-W in 5k is the Epic-W in 7k. This leads to substantially larger file sizes and thus more media related expenses.

2) To get 120fps, the crop factor is much greater on the Epic-W than it is on the Scarlet-W, almost to the point where there aren't any lenses wide enough for some scenarios.


So my question pertains mostly to #1 above:

Let's say I normally shoot with the Scarlet-W in 5k with a 5:1 compression at 24fps. Would doing a 8:1 compression on the Epic-W at 7k in order to achieve similar file size pretty much negate the difference in low light performance as far as noise is concerned? Are there any tests/comparisons out there? Would really love to know if it's worth it to upgrade to the Epic-W purely for a boost in low-light performance.

 

[Evin Grant]

Don't be afraid of higher compresion ratios, my normal starting place is 8:1 for 4K/5K on the Dragon, I assume with the higer rez and better SNR of the Helium We can push it even farther to 10:1 or 12:1 with very favorable results.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Less noise is normally easier to compress. As far as what ratios are acceptable is a personal thing and something you should figure out during testing.

 

[Richard Luke]

6.5K is virtually S35 anyway reducing file size even more

 

[Nick Morrison]

Data wise Scarlet 5K 5:1 is identical to Helium 7K 10:1 - something to keep in mind.

Yes the crop factor at 120fps on Helium is extreme, but nothing a Tokina 11-16 couldn't fix.

 

[kevinjoelson]

...the only drawback I see to that camera is the low-light performance. Coming from the A7s world there are simply less projects that I am able to use my Scarlet-W on as it requires a considerably higher lighting/crew budget in order to use. Shooting at above 1600iso isn't really a great idea on the Scarlet-W and I frequently land in the 1600-3200 range on the A7s.

You're only talking about a stop or two of light here. Something that Kinos or small sources can easily help carve out to define your subject. You don't need a considerably higher budget to shoot on the Dragon sensor.

 

[Nick Morrison]

You're only talking about a stop or two of light here. Something that Kinos or small sources can easily help carve out to define your subject. You don't need a considerably higher budget to shoot on the Dragon sensor.

Agreed.

Also on larger jobs shooting at 1600 or 3200 isnt really practical. Most of the larger, softer sources thrive at 320 to 800.

 

[Tim Milgram]

You're only talking about a stop or two of light here. Something that Kinos or small sources can easily help carve out to define your subject. You don't need a considerably higher budget to shoot on the Dragon sensor.

I believe your answer holds true for the majority of situations; I'm just not 100% sure yet if it's true for mine. I mostly shoot dance, often times in large spaces, which nearly always requires very wide shots, which means I often need light sources to be far away from the subject (thus more powerful). For projects for clients with budgets, usually not a problem to hire a crew to handle this. But often times I do collaborations for my YouTube channel to build a following and those are completely out of pocket. Other times, it's live settings in which I cannot control the light at all.


What would you suggest?

 

[Tim Milgram]

Agreed.

Also on larger jobs shooting at 1600 or 3200 isnt really practical. Most of the larger, softer sources thrive at 320 to 800.

Oh I totally agree with you there. On larger jobs there's enough of a budget to keep things at around 800, which I would continue doing regardless of sensor.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Oh I totally agree with you there. On larger jobs there's enough of a budget to keep things at around 800, which I would continue doing regardless of sensor.

I really don't get your issue, with 500 ISO film & T1.4 lens I could happily shoot for 30 minutes after sunset & still have a full exposure. Even with just candles you should be OK.

 

[Bill Totolo]

t

I believe your answer holds true for the majority of situations; I'm just not 100% sure yet if it's true for mine. I mostly shoot dance, often times in large spaces, which nearly always requires very wide shots, which means I often need light sources to be far away from the subject (thus more powerful). For projects for clients with budgets, usually not a problem to hire a crew to handle this. But often times I do collaborations for my YouTube channel to build a following and those are completely out of pocket. Other times, it's live settings in which I cannot control the light at all.


What would you suggest?

Tim,

I've seen some of your work, I think part of the challenge (if I recall correctly) is that you shoot deep stops sans focus puller.
If this is the case, perhaps you could consider using lower contrast lenses to get a little more dynamic range overall, but eventually, you're gong to have to bump up your lighting package to bring up your base levels of illumination. This expense naturally gets passed onto the client. The ones who can't afford the expense get the Sony, the ones that can get the bigger studio/lighting package, etc.
Keep up the good work,

Bill

 

[Tim Milgram]

t
Tim,

I've seen some of your work, I think part of the challenge (if I recall correctly) is that you shoot deep stops sans focus puller.
If this is the case, perhaps you could consider using lower contrast lenses to get a little more dynamic range overall, but eventually, you're gong to have to bump up your lighting package to bring up your base levels of illumination. This expense naturally gets passed onto the client. The ones who afford the expense get the Sony, the ones that can get the bigger studio/lighting package, etc.
Keep up the good work,

Bill

You're completely right. But the whole point of my post was to get away from using the A7s altogether which might seem possible with a more low-light friendly sensor of the Epic-W Helium.

Based on some more research I'm getting the idea that it really is THAT much better in low-light than the Dragon sensor, making it a better camera for run-and-gun. The goal is that on lower budget stuff to still be able to use my Red rather than an A7s, which only seems possible with something that has low light capabilities more like the Helium than the Dragon sensor. I guess I have another month to decide to upgrade, hopefully some more info comes along before then so I can be sure.

 

[Oron Cohen]

Could you link to a specific video or two as an example? and also say what ISO/f-stop setting you used?

 

[Nick Morrison]

If you need lowlight, the Helium is a no brainer. You'll just need to compensate on those lower budget jobs by shooting at lower resolution (6K?) and higher compression to lower the data rates, as presumably you'll be backing up your own media, and may need to be frugal with your media management.

But for lowlight, no other cinema camera compares to Helium, outside of the Panasonic Varicam (and it's 5000 ISO "switch").

 

[paulcurtis]

You're completely right. But the whole point of my post was to get away from using the A7s altogether which might seem possible with a more low-light friendly sensor of the Epic-W Helium.

Based on some more research I'm getting the idea that it really is THAT much better in low-light than the Dragon sensor, making it a better camera for run-and-gun. The goal is that on lower budget stuff to still be able to use my Red rather than an A7s, which only seems possible with something that has low light capabilities more like the Helium than the Dragon sensor. I guess I have another month to decide to upgrade, hopefully some more info comes along before then so I can be sure.

I have both an A7sII and E-W, i've done a lot of low light work on the A7sII, shot 4K at 25k in an extreme case with a lot of post clean up. I have a pretty good handle on how that camera looks. I've not used the E-W to that degree. If i can grab some time a bit later i'll side by side it.

I think it would be good, but will probably need post clean up. I've been very happy with the image so far, very happy

cheers
Paul

 

[Tim Milgram]

I have both an A7sII and E-W, i've done a lot of low light work on the A7sII, shot 4K at 25k in an extreme case with a lot of post clean up. I have a pretty good handle on how that camera looks. I've not used the E-W to that degree. If i can grab some time a bit later i'll side by side it.

I think it would be good, but will probably need post clean up. I've been very happy with the image so far, very happy

cheers
Paul

Thanks man! That would be very helpful!

 

[Tuomas Hakala]

I don't really get the claim that A7S is good at low light. Sure it can see a lot but it has so much noise... and it is nothing like a grain, it is more like splotches. If you can overexpose it helps a bit but in "low light" that really isn't an option. When you pull the blacks down some of the noise goes away but not all, and you'd be always sort of forced to crunch the blacks on your grade. I tried denoising with neatvideo and it still doesn't look "clean". I personally have had A7s on a set just few times... both times it was b-camming for few shots for FS7 and with the lighting being the same, both times some well lit things in generally darker places, the FS7 always came on top on being cleaner.

I too am thinking if Epic-W would be good... or Scarlet-W or just have no camera. Epic-W low light is interesting point but as far as I know it is only benefit if you shoot 8K. At 6k it would be noise wise the same with Weapon Dragon 6K... and since 6K is the first setting being able to do 50p or more, for me that would be where the camera would be most of the time unless shooting narrative so the low light wouldn't be ta selling point. Same time I'm not fan of cropping and with Scarlet-W 5K you'd actually have bit more frame than on 6K Helium. And then of course comes the even higher speed shooting question and at 4.5K Scarlet-W is actually quite good both frame size and framerate wise while Epic-W would feel like huge compromise at 4.5K. Before Epic-W I was thinking S-W would be good enough, now things are really confusing. That is mostly because of the S-W to E-W discount though cause for my purposes E-W still feels like a compromise. I wouldn't think about "compromise" on its full price while for others it could be perfect camera. Honestly I have no idea what to do with this choice

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

E-W also has deeper, silkier blacks, better skin tones and creamier bokeh. Overall, it creates better images than the S-W.

 

[Jack Chapman]

I thought I would come to red user with this question also as I need to make a decision fairly soon. I'm swaying towards the scarlet and hope for another upgrade option down the road that offers good low light. Is this naive? The Epic-W looks incredible at low light, but the frame rates are more preferable on the s/w. Decisions, decisions.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

The Helium probably offers better low light than Dragon does, but that doesn't mean that the Dragon does poorly in low light; I've only been able work with a Dragon in a Scarlet-X body, and it had a standard filter in it, but I saw a few of the tests some of the earlier Scarlet-W purchasers did using a low light filter, and the results were pretty good.

Since Scarlet-W is upgradeable, so it's still also a good entry point into the Red ecosystem.