Scarlet-W "Upgrade or Not" what to consider

[Martin Konrad]

Hi everyone, I think I might not be on my own waiting for a Scarlet-W and trying to make up my mind about the Epic-W Upgrade offer.

First things first, big thanks to the Red-Team to offer us the discount, merci!

I have been using Red on a rental basis for the last 6 or 7 years but the Scarlet-W would be my first Red purchase.
Again there might be quite a few others who are in a similar position, having to build the full kit from scratch.
Camera body, rig, cards, batteries, faster computer...

My Red Rep told me in March when I enquired about availability of the Scarlet-W, depending on accessories, April. I ordered a few days later 3/3/2016

Well, I now know there is no reliable way to estimate the waiting time and I did read all the details about Dragon Sensor production
being difficult to estimate. But I cannot even get an estimation on Epic-W availability in Europe...

Having a camera in my hands in 2-3 weeks vs "some time next year" would go a long way to recover some of the price difference.
Just paying 10k to join another indefinite queue makes less business sense.
Maybe we can get a little estimation from somewhere official, if I would know I am number 2000 on a waiting list and only 100 Scarlet-W's have shipped
in the last 6 month it makes little sense to wait.

Apart from the availability, what else to consider, please add your thoughts

Availability:

unknown for both at least according to Red Europe

Cost:

+ 10000 (for the upgrade Scarlet-W to Epic-W)
+ 5000 for media, this might be very different for everyone, I would have purchased 1x 512 +2x 240 for the Scarlet-W and to shoot the same fov on the Epic I have about twice the data (5K Scarlet-W vs 7K Epic-W)

+ price of faster computer I you have one handling 5K but not 7/8K

Sensor difference:

on the plus side for the Helium, the footage looks stunningly clean, which makes this camera usable in additional situations
on the plus side of the Scarlet W the 120fps is has a much better field of view, going from 5 to 4k is a much less dramatic
change than going from 7k to 4k on the Helium, for a quick "lets get a few shots of this in 120fps"
on the plus side of the Scarlet-W for a lot of productions 4/5K is plenty and the Dragon Sensor footage is a standard, many post houses have their
workflow for color, noise... in place and if sending 7/8K footage someone will have to do the extra transcode

please add to the list, for us undecided, Thanks

 

[Andy Roberts]

Scarlet-W at 5K vs. Epic-W at 8K compared

I have no idea what you should do, but do know that Scarlet-W is a cropped sensor... it is a 6K Dragon sensor using the 5K portion.
So if you do a lot of wide FOV work, Helium at FF 8K is 15% wider than Scarlet-W at FF 5K.

In regard to 120FPS, the question is, how often do you need to shoot 120FPS... if all you need is 96FPS for a 4x 24FPS base, then the FOV of Helium 5K is very comparable to the Scarlet-W 4K. Either way, Helium looks great at 120 FPS 4K.

35mm DSLR FF FOV comparison
11mm lens
Scarlet-W 4K: 19mm
Epic-W 4K: 26mm

For 120FPS on Helium, I can live with that FOV.

 

[Martin Konrad]

thanks Andy

not asking people what to do, its more about gathering differences while I am waiting anyway...
Yes I do know the Scarlet-W uses a smaller area of the 6k sensor, its more about differences between shots
done with the same camera. I like to shoot as much as possible within the same sensor area for one project.
Of course I can swap lenses to compensate for changes in fov but its not ideal. And of course using a cropped part of the sensor
changes the grain structure as well.

i'll add to my own list :

the 8K of the Epic-W is very close to the resolution my Canon 5dsR, love to see some stills shot for print (as in not at 180º, rather around 1/500)

 

[Alberto Guglielmi]

I would enquiry with your rep or with some local dealer as for availability. It looks like Epic-W are coming out of production very fast. While the Scarlet-W still has no delivery date on red.com, the Epic-W shows 3-5 days. And for reference it was 1-2 days at launch, moved up to 5-7 days in the afternoon, and back down to 3-5 days now. My guess is that you will get your Epic-W much faster if you have the funds for it.

Remember, if HD space and post are a concern, you can always shoot Epic-W with 4k prores. That will save a ton of space and time, at the expense of raw manipulation.

FOV is a relative problem. I don't like to change format, and I like to use the 50mm a lot because of the feel of it. Going to cropped formats with a 50mm base makes it for a long lens, and I find a huge (pronounced trump's style) feel difference between a 50mm and 35mm or wider. Said so, it is just a mindset at the beginning of the shoot. Once you know what you want, you can make a "lens/format" plan and pretty much achieve the look with any lens or any format. Not 100% true, but valid for most of the cases.

 

[Martin Konrad]

I did ask Red Europe, not even for a precise date but if an order placed today would mean a camera in my hands next week? In a month? Unknown?

The answer I got was "we don't know yet" which does not really sound like within 5 to 7 days, does it?

 

[Luca Orlandi]

I did ask Red Europe, not even for a precise date but if an order placed today would mean a camera in my hands next week? In a month? Unknown?

The answer I got was "we don't know yet" which does not really sound like within 5 to 7 days, does it?

Order placed on oct,11... still no info from Red Europe about delivery.

 

[Martin Konrad]

hi Luca can you send me a message once you get any news from Red, it does seem like cameras are arriving in Europe a bit slower...

 

[Martin Konrad]

you guys are still welcome to add to the differences/consequences

meanwhile I continue the list:

different base ISO (unconfirmed but about 2 stops difference)

outdoors on the Helium it requires additional NDs but indoors/studio work is where the real difference is

If I can get the same set lit with 400/575 HMIs instead of 1600s there is a real difference in weight/rigging/rental and set-up speed