Scarlet-W footage and what I learned about the camera

[Jason Han]

I also prefered tungsten over daylight sources, but now i have hive plasma lights and i have one more stop of light and i can choose between 4600K – 7000K

Damn I gatta get those hives!

Jason, how did you light or control natural light in the outside shots? Everything feels very balanced but still good contrast.

Great question Andy- it was mostly placing them in the right spots and manipulating the sun with bounce boards. For closeups I may have used some 4x4 light grid/half softfrost
The close up of the girl in the end was just straight sun hitting her on and off. I exposed to the shade and then masked the sun hot spots to balance the levels when it's directly on her. I trusted the DR on the camera to retain detail, it really is incredible.

I usually don't like the teal/orange look but you made me give it a chance.

Haha me neither, I think it's when people over do it with LUTs and what not it starts getting too much.

 

[Christoph Wieczorek]

looks awesome jason, great work!

would be fantastic if you could also share some r3ds of iso 1600 grand central and the couple walking at the end.

 

[paulcurtis]

FWIW were these debayered using the DEB checkbox? When i was messing around looking at some GS footage and found that checkbox it was like night and day. I don't know why it's not the default.

As for light sources. Remote Phosphor is awesome although the later generations of LED aren't bad either (i have an Area 48 and also Aladdin (or Westcott) Flexlights. I just couldn't get on with other LED panels for the same reasons others point out. But i still just feel that Area 48 light is sublime.

IMHO skin looks better on camera at daylight, in real life in tungsten, most cameras that is

cheers
Paul

 

[Chris McKechnie]

Looks great man. Kudos, especially at maintaining focus with the wireless issues that plagued your shoot.

 

[Jonesy Jones]

Thanks for sharing Jason, but this video has kind of unsold the camera for me. I have been planning on buying the Scarlet W, but I am just seeing so much noise. I would love to be proven wrong or convinced otherwise. Are there issues with this camera/sensor and noise?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

really? then why do people say the white balance has no relevance and can just be switched in post?
i remember with the MX i had to light entire green screens with HMIS, but so many people here are adamant that the white balance doesnt do anything to the raw image.

Two different things. The white balance doesn't matter for correction, i.e with RAW you can adjust to whatever you want in post. However, CMOS sensor tech is always set to an optimal Kelvin and an optimal DR ISO base. For Dragon the base ISO is around 320-400 and the Kelvin is around 5000.
Almost any sensor out there works best at that kelving-rate, that's why HMIs give such a better result for lighting than tungsten. Even though Dragon is vastly better than MX in tungsten I still think colors and contrasts gets a bit muddy with Dragon and tungsten so generally I'd recommend 5000-5600. Some cinematographers I know tend to keep cameras at 4300 to be able to get a good mix tint between daylight and tungsten lights, i.e they use the color shifts and differences of them to their advantage and generally keep that whitebalance in post, enhancing those colors.

Thanks for sharing Jason, but this video has kind of unsold the camera for me. I have been planning on buying the Scarlet W, but I am just seeing so much noise. I would love to be proven wrong or convinced otherwise. Are there issues with this camera/sensor and noise?

Do you mean issues with Jasons camera in specific or in general? Because in that setting with so much light I would have gotten a perfectly clean image with my Weapon. I think the ISO is set far too high and D.E.B wasn't checked in post. Underexposure is the main reason why people get noisy images with a Dragon. It's the new trend with new cinematographers, trying to light something without lights and then complaining about the camera. I'm not sure when and where cinematography and still photography turned into nightvision photography, but generally if you want good looking images you need to light your shot and that will always be the case even if you get something with clean 100 000 ISO. You "form" your subject with lights, it's not about just getting exposure. And with documentary or practical ligthing you "find" those lights.

The art of cinematography is in decline in my opinion... or there's an increase in photographers that doesn't care for basics. So if you are a true photographer/cinematographer who knows the basics of cinematography, then you will be fine with a Scarlet-W.

 

[Jonesy Jones]

Do you mean issues with Jasons camera in specific or in general? Because in that setting with so much light I would have gotten a perfectly clean image with my Weapon. I think the ISO is set far too high and D.E.B wasn't checked in post. Underexposure is the main reason why people get noisy images with a Dragon. It's the new trend with new cinematographers, trying to light something without lights and then complaining about the camera. I'm not sure when and where cinematography and still photography turned into nightvision photography, but generally if you want good looking images you need to light your shot and that will always be the case even if you get something with clean 100 000 ISO. You "form" your subject with lights, it's not about just getting exposure. And with documentary or practical ligthing you "find" those lights.

The art of cinematography is in decline in my opinion... or there's an increase in photographers that doesn't care for basics. So if you are a true photographer/cinematographer who knows the basics of cinematography, then you will be fine with a Scarlet-W.

I was hoping for 'not-a-rant' when I asked to be convinced otherwise. And in my opinion there is no shortage of light in that video, particularly the first few shots, where there is also a ton of noise. And I am seeing it in Red footage everywhere. Grading Red footage at the moment which was lit well and the moment I begin to lift it noise appears nearly instantly.

I don't hate Red. Not bagging on Red. I'm just saying, if noise is an inherently consistent problem even when there is plenty of light and God forbid you have to shoot a slightly underexposed shot cause you're in a hurry, I'll probably pass. But I still haven't made a decision. Just doing my due diligence.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I was hoping for 'not-a-rant' when I asked to be convinced otherwise. And in my opinion there is no shortage of light in that video, particularly the first few shots, where there is also a ton of noise. And I am seeing it in Red footage everywhere. Grading Red footage at the moment which was lit well and the moment I begin to lift it noise appears nearly instantly.

I don't hate Red. Not bagging on Red. I'm just saying, if noise is an inherently consistent problem even when there is plenty of light and God forbid you have to shoot a slightly underexposed shot cause you're in a hurry, I'll probably pass. But I still haven't made a decision. Just doing my due diligence.

I'm curious to know what camera you'd opt for instead if noise is an issue? You would probably get better result with an Alexa in terms of noise, but you loose resolution. As for grading Red, are you looking at the final premium debayer with D.E.B at it's final resolution (most likely 4K)? And what was the ISO used on those shots? If you have enough lights there's no need going over ISO400. Also, shooting 6K and debayer down with D.E.B to 4K without lifting underexposure would genereate a pretty clean image. I would love to see an R3D of the thing you are grading, that way we would know if it's shot properly or not.

On top of not doing the correct exposure, the things that make people get noise have to do with lower resolutions, lower debayer, no D.E.B and so on. Processing RAW correctly is the other half of getting it right. If you feed enough lights to a shot at ISO1600 you might end up with pretty low noise footage.

But yes, I'm curious to know what other camera you are thinking of that performs better when looking at the final processed images. The video in this thread is too noisy for the level of light shot so I'm curious what the ISO settings were. There's no wrong with noise, it could even be there by purpose to give texture, but that footage would have been easy to get almost completely noise-less.

 

[Ugo Del]

Don't forget that info regarding that video: "but I did use Film convert only for the grain". I have noise free footages from the previous scarlet @4k 13:1 and 5k 16:1.

 

[Jonesy Jones]

Fair questions for sure, and if the noisy footage is due to my inexperience with Red footage I wouldn't be surprised, I'd be relieved. I can't post an R3D right now, maybe shortly, but I can tell you it was shot at ISO800 on an Epic MX. Noise is visible in the blacks the moment I do anything to lift/boost/whatever exposure/brightness/gain/whatever. I am making slight color changes in Redcine and cutting in After Effects. I am new to the Red workflow, I hope I'm the problem.

If the noise in the OP's footage is due to Film Convert that'd be one thing, but to me it looks like noise. The OP even says there's a bunch of noise. I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure there's noise.

As far as the other camera I'm looking at, the other real option at the moment is the UM46. Yes, Alexa mini's colors and look are attractive, but it's out of my league budget wise and not enough res, which is valuable to me. I do understand that the UM46 has it's own issues, particularly the magenta corners that are still getting ironed out, but when working correctly that camera produces some lovely images. Checks many of the boxes that Scarlet does, and even some it doesn't. I have been leaning toward Scarlet W, but I am not going to buy a noisy camera, especially for that price.

Red cameras have produced some amazing images of which I've never noticed noise, but these productions often have top notch cinematographers, top notch sets, top notch colorists, and top notch VFX and post processing. Right now I have none of those at a top notch level. I need a camera that can help me out, at least a little bit.

 

[jordan levy]

I was hoping for 'not-a-rant' when I asked to be convinced otherwise. And in my opinion there is no shortage of light in that video, particularly the first few shots, where there is also a ton of noise. And I am seeing it in Red footage everywhere. Grading Red footage at the moment which was lit well and the moment I begin to lift it noise appears nearly instantly.

I don't hate Red. Not bagging on Red. I'm just saying, if noise is an inherently consistent problem even when there is plenty of light and God forbid you have to shoot a slightly underexposed shot cause you're in a hurry, I'll probably pass. But I still haven't made a decision. Just doing my due diligence.

i just shot a whole week of exterior nights and we delivered the cleanest blacks ive ever seen out of a camera, no noise. just like film noise or grain is a result of pushing it too far or operators error. the camera gives clean results if treated properly. ive seen worse noise on a poorly exposed alexa.
i was shooting a raven and a weapon side by side at 5:1 at 23.98 and 9:1 at 100fps 4khd, 500 iso, at night, on city streets and zombie graveyards, kowa sphericals, big lens flares. we also did not see any difference in the quality of footage between cameras.

edit- i just went back to see jason's video to see what made you think you didnt want the camera now. first of all, jason, beautiful job!
secondly, i dont see an issue with noise, you are judging a color graded, compressed for vimeo, watching on your computer, video!
that's crazy, it looks stunning. you want noise, especially fixed pattern noise, go with blackmagic 4k, you want super clean clinical footage, go with a sony or varicam. you have to add grain into those to make them look good. in fact, we even add a little grain into red and alexa footage. so almost everything you see on tv or theaters have grain added in post for a filmic quality. do you get icg magazine? they talk about it quite often, if so read the article on the show vinyl.

 

[Ugo Del]

Fair questions for sure, and if the noisy footage is due to my inexperience with Red footage I wouldn't be surprised, I'd be relieved. I can't post an R3D right now, maybe shortly, but I can tell you it was shot at ISO800 on an Epic MX. Noise is visible in the blacks the moment I do anything to lift/boost/whatever exposure/brightness/gain/whatever. I am making slight color changes in Redcine and cutting in After Effects. I am new to the Red workflow, I hope I'm the problem.

If the noise in the OP's footage is due to Film Convert that'd be one thing, but to me it looks like noise. The OP even says there's a bunch of noise. I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure there's noise.

As far as the other camera I'm looking at, the other real option at the moment is the UM46. Yes, Alexa mini's colors and look are attractive, but it's out of my league budget wise and not enough res, which is valuable to me. I do understand that the UM46 has it's own issues, particularly the magenta corners that are still getting ironed out, but when working correctly that camera produces some lovely images. Checks many of the boxes that Scarlet does, and even some it doesn't. I have been leaning toward Scarlet W, but I am not going to buy a noisy camera, especially for that price.

Red cameras have produced some amazing images of which I've never noticed noise, but these productions often have top notch cinematographers, top notch sets, top notch colorists, and top notch VFX and post processing. Right now I have none of those at a top notch level. I need a camera that can help me out, at least a little bit.

Well, dont' forget that many cameras have some sort of noise reduction & sharpening inside. Red gives you everything raw. If you know how to use it it gives you fantastic results.
I was excited by the Ursa for a moment but watching videos and playing with RAW files, I saw the limits. The colors seem nice at first glance but they are in fact weird and limited. They tried to mimic the Alexa, with blue being cyan, saturated reds, etc. but in a sickly sweet way. It almost made me sick of the alexa look. And the color separation is bad if you look closely. Faces colors are not subtle like on Alexa or Red. Everything is monochromatic on faces. Red (and even more the Alexa and Varicam) shows many tonalities, yellow, orange, red, where the Ursa just show some red and pink. And the problem is that you are stuck with that look. I played a lot with the Ursa raw files and there is no flexibility. I think Red is the most universal camera regarding the number of styles and looks you can achieve.
Here is a grab of the video Jason posted, from a R3D he shared, out of RCX (open it full size in a new window). Look on the table, on the bed, on the guy, It's noise free IMO.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

I just have to chime in here. I'm in the middle of a feature shooting 2 weapons anamorphic. We are really pushing the cameras with lots of mixed lighting and low lit scenes. It looks fucking incredible. It's a non issue, period. If you want cinematic images, use this camera and know your craft. That's it!

 

[Jason Han]

Looks great man. Kudos, especially at maintaining focus with the wireless issues that plagued your shoot.

Thanks Chris!! Always admired your work, thanks for checking mine out!

Thanks for sharing Jason, but this video has kind of unsold the camera for me. I have been planning on buying the Scarlet W, but I am just seeing so much noise. I would love to be proven wrong or convinced otherwise. Are there issues with this camera/sensor and noise?

Does it look like noise to you? It's grain, I purposely add a lot of grain as I don't like the sterile look of digital. If I don't add grain it's clean

 

[Jason Han]

The video in this thread is too noisy for the level of light shot so I'm curious what the ISO settings were.

There's no wrong with noise, it could even be there by purpose to give texture, but that footage would have been easy to get almost completely noise-less.

This is the first time someone thought that this was actual noise - maybe I added a little too much grain for you, but I personally like the grain... FYI, it was DEB'ed and ISO 320-800 for the whole shoot, except the grand central. I think my post talking about noise got a little confusing, but I find it kind of weird that you would assume someone would improperly expose in bright day light to have that much noise? What would I possibly do to create this much noise? Not black shade, shoot 3200 ISO with ND? There is a big difference between noise and film grain, you can usually tell by the chroma noise.
Here is a frame without grain added.... too sterile for my tastes

 

[jordan levy]

no you did good, most people can tell the difference, we have to add grain into everything we shoot.
i had to go back and actually look because i couldnt believe he was referring to YOUR video.

 

[Jason Han]

no you did good, most people can tell the difference, we have to add grain into everything we shoot.
i had to go back and actually look because i couldnt believe he was referring to YOUR video.

Thanks Jordan, yeah I am kind of shocked that people thought this was noise... so I asked a bunch of people if they thought it was noisy as well, no one actually thought it was "noise"

 

[Brody_B]

i had to go back and actually look because i couldnt believe he was referring to YOUR video.

Haha same here, Jason your shots look Dope! i see the grain, and I dig it.


Jonsey, maybe you should take a look at the r3d Jason posted and have a close look at that data. The MX doesn't perform as well as todays dragons, so you are looking closely at old tech with that one.

 

[Bob Gundu]

MX to dragon to Weapon have had exponential advancements to how the signal to noise is handled. Now having ability to choose an OLPF is seriously no issue. I love shooting between 1600-2500 ISO at times. Future is bright.

 

[Jonesy Jones]

Thank you guys. You are restoring my faith in this camera. I am relieved. When you say "MX to Dragon to Weapon", as I understand it even though Dragon and Weapon use the same sensor, the processing in Weapon is improved. Is this correct? Is that where some of the noise issues are improved?

Jason, I think your product is solid. The grain looked like noise to me, that's all. Especially because I only see it where I'd see noise, and because you said there was noise in it. But if its grain that's been added that's a relief.

Not ready to pull the trigger, but it's a shame they're so back ordered.