Scarlet-W announcement only really hurt Scarlet-D owners

[jordan levy]

Ha! Your response to Adrian's thoughtful post is basically "Alexa sucks". Like he predicted.

no its not, the design of the mini sucks, i love the amira!
i just never had a chance to vent, no pun intended, about that hot fan blowing in the operators face, haha.

 

[Elsie N]

From someone who has absolutely no ties to this conversation, (I just gave the downpayment for an Alexa Mini, after careful consideration, and before you all jump on me, it was strictly market related, where I live lots of people have RED but pretty much no one has Alexas) I'd like to offer a few words:

RED is a FANTASTIC company. In a good day you can come over here and talk to Jarred who happens to be the owner and the maker of these things. Good luck talking to mr. Arri or Mr. Sony or Mrs. Canon. They're shadows behind the faces behind the faces of the sales department. RED feels like a community before anything else (And it might be because it is).

That being said, they're also a company (They're a company first actually). That means they need to make a profit, and that means they need to sell stuff. And how do they sell stuff? By throwing out all the shiny stuff at us! Let's face it guys, The RED One was more than enough, if you want to push it, the first Epic was all you could ever ask for (As well as the first Alexa, assuming it were 4K). Just as, save for fuel economy, a 10 year old BMW is more than you could ever need.

Need, not want.

We want the new, the cool, the edgy. And that's fine, if you're willing to pay for it. Some folks here are willing to, some are not. Both are ok. To make your own stuff, a Scarlet Dragon is more than you could ever, ever need (And also your clients. If they REALLY want a Weapon or the Scarlet W, go and rent that for a day, end of story). However, if you want to rent your equipment, you need to have the latest, which, yeah, will come out every year. It's how the market works (The car rental market works like that too. And those guys also make a profit changing models every year), deal with it, OR not, and just don't rent.

If every company in the world was as innovative, creative and easy going as RED, we'd be in a much better place. Also, quick shoutout to you guys in this forum. I've learned more about filmmaking in this place than anywhere else, on or offline.

Yes, I know every next question will be why the mini instead of the weapon (Despite the market related question hehe). You guys are also the biggest fanboys on earth, this side of an apple forum!

Here's to new and better cameras!! (Except for an Alexa Mini 2!! Hehehe)

Excellent post Adrian.

But I point to the statements highlighted as suitable for people who are willing to settle.

Most of us who stay on the upgrade path are sympatico with RED.

RED never settles.

 

[Ash Worth]

Canon used to be like that (And I still think Canon color science might be the best overall if you're going from in camera to final cut without grading), but they're so limited now, it's almost a joke ($16K for the new C300 and I won't get anything beyond 30p in 4K??? Are you serious??).

A joke that sells more than any camera in that price range. Dumb comments, I thought we'd moved on from this narrative.

 

[Brian Merlen]

this thread is why i keep coming to RU lol...

but seriously folks you have to buy both a red and an arri...its my secret but ill share it...cuz then no matter who's on set with you at the time you can bro down either way man...you could be telling your DIT about the amira and AC about the weapon for all i care... now when i go to set no one bitches to me about my choices of cameras, cuz I'm in both camps...also when people say ones better than the other, again I'm in both camps, so i like to think i can't lose...besides the march of depreciation...

but unless you have a good business model the digital models are out far too often...why we think we need the newest is beyond me...red certainly changed the playing field this update i think cuz CF/8k cost so much it means only the top most earners can possibly justify spending 45k right after spending 10k on dragon. scarlets are like the new epic, and i think the MG and scarlet both have limitations that may impact on if rental facilities carry them at all, and if so their market success vs the improved 3d LUTs *this matters a ton.. and the 4k prores, which matters too but way less i think..

i am going to try for CF/maybe 8k no idea...but might get a scarlet w 2nd unit...idk what to do even... i mean I'm sure I'm going to do something, probably upgrade the red i have, hopefully get an SXT if i strike it rich, but if not Scarlet W or raven are cheap enough i can get em too for personal non rental fun..

the real question: how many red t shirts and hats can my accessory credit buy? cuz I'm not sure what to use it on so I'm thinking of doing 5k in the stupidest stuff instead, stickers, go hard at it...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Brian - for some time, from your posts here, it has seemed clear that you have pretty heavily committed to the rental business. Do I read that right? If so, I am curious, is your market the demand from NYC film, corporate, etc? Do you find the "overhead" and risk of rentals manageable? I am just wondering if it is hard to compete with the "big guys" in the rental market since (again, assuming...) that you can't, or at least don't, offer full packages of grip, etc. It really does seem liked you have "nailed" it with the rental thing.

 

[Brian Merlen]

so far I'm hanging in there, but i actually work with the big entities. i don't do rentals as my primary business model either, i offer services such as DIT/AE/media manage/phantom tech and that is what I consider my primary business model with rentals as a secondary curse if anything (but I'm also not beyond working side freelance jobs too like i do audio, wear too many hats was doing nights in a post house till they went under too). its not the money man, its the fact that by the time you get to shoot your dream camera forever one day its been grabbed by every AC between here and china, beat on, cosmetics will be thrashed, million hours... its like even if you make a profit/break even/whatever you are going for, resell halfway through cycle it still just somehow feels bad to me since what i really want to do is shoot on them for fun more...

i want to one day be able to have them all on retainer is my goal, specifically to bring with me on passion projects, bs jobs, good paying jobs, whatever and not living as rental units and the red if upgraded will always live there but thankfully in a few years that arri will be my go to unit for personal stuff. I'm in love with them but they might as well be on mars they are always booked all the units, and compared to being an owner op this is not aa good business model vs some of the guys i know who can work and rent constantly on their jobs...that should be the goal a steady amount of work and not renting out besides when you work them, but alas not something i can yet do in life. I'm happy as a workflow guy too, and having the units helps me understand them in and out when i do bother using them. honestly some days i just want a hobbyist camera i can always have in my car...damn phantom was supposed to be it but has a broke part and the batteries suck so I'm heavily considering a scarlet w to keep my sanity as a shooter between now and whenever that shitty arri I'm in love with is kicked out of rental rotoarty: i shot some skating on it in 2k at 200 though honestly i love the amira more than over cranks on my red i think I'm not sure why maybe its the lack of cropping makes the final output nicer? i don't know it did look great even in mere prores log 2k i was happy. i know its not as good quality but truly i love images from both kinds of cameras so I'm not so stuck on the branding, i could name things i love about both the amira and the dragon...and next week hopefully the mini too..

 

[adrian vedder]

Jordan, can you tell me more about the mini? It's hard to find anything about it online. I've used the older Alexas, but I gotta say I bought the mini without having ever used it! What did you like? Does battery time sucks? I refuse to buy the arri viewfinder, specially because for the better part, the camera will be on a gimbal, so do you feel a smallHD 502 will be enough? C'mon man, you got me hooked up, so now spill the beans!

 

[Brian Merlen]

+1 for the alexa mini tangent... i haven't used it yet... @op have you considered just offing the scarlet entirely and grabbing an alexa classic instead? i seen ready to shoot classics 20-30k now so i keep recommending that to people who don't want to stay with red/sony/canon/whoever cuz a lot of places would probably still want to shoot it id imagine esp if producers don't need raw or know much about the arri line up and demand a newer arri... minus 3d LUTs, wireless control, UHD uprez and about 80fps its as good as the new one basically... (and if 4/3 matters to you old 4/3 plus are pretty cheap now too)

 

[jordan levy]

Jordan, can you tell me more about the mini? It's hard to find anything about it online. I've used the older Alexas, but I gotta say I bought the mini without having ever used it! What did you like? Does battery time sucks? I refuse to buy the arri viewfinder, specially because for the better part, the camera will be on a gimbal, so do you feel a smallHD 502 will be enough? C'mon man, you got me hooked up, so now spill the beans!

the battery time is fine, everything about its good except for how hot it gets and in studio mode i would never use it again unless i had to, or maybe if i was going to be in a cold situation where the heat coming from the fans and body would benefit me. i personally like evfs, i come from film so im used to them, and i expose mostly by using false color. im not sure where are the camera info and settings would be if you didnt have one, it might putput to an external monitor but im sorry i dont know.
for a gimbal im sure it's fine.

 

[Nick Morrison]

+1 for the alexa mini tangent... i haven't used it yet... @op have you considered just offing the scarlet entirely and grabbing an alexa classic instead? i seen ready to shoot classics 20-30k now so i keep recommending that to people who don't want to stay with red/sony/canon/whoever cuz a lot of places would probably still want to shoot it id imagine esp if producers don't need raw or know much about the arri line up and demand a newer arri... minus 3d LUTs, wireless control, UHD uprez and about 80fps its as good as the new one basically... (and if 4/3 matters to you old 4/3 plus are pretty cheap now too)

I have to imagine reason why Alexa Classic's are selling is I don't believe they're eligible for sensor upgrade (allegedly) being unveiled by Arri at NAB 2016. Could be a lot to spend $30K on essentially EOL camera.

 

[jordan levy]

I have to imagine reason why Alexa Classic's are selling is I don't believe they're eligible for sensor upgrade (allegedly) being unveiled by Arri at NAB 2016. Could be a lot to spend $30K on essentially EOL camera.

oh wow, they need a 4k sensor, its getting ridiculous…
i dont think the classic can do 4:3 either, i know thats why my rental house has sold all they had for about 25k each, at first i was like what what what???
then the manger said, believe me you dont want that model, so now that nick said that, its probably the case.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

@Brian - Thanks for sharing your insight. Good luck. I am sure it's only a matter of time before you'll be doing what you really want to be doing.

:thumbsup:

 

[adrian vedder]

the battery time is fine, everything about its good except for how hot it gets and in studio mode i would never use it again unless i had to, or maybe if i was going to be in a cold situation where the heat coming from the fans and body would benefit me. i personally like evfs, i come from film so im used to them, and i expose mostly by using false color. im not sure where are the camera info and settings would be if you didnt have one, it might putput to an external monitor but im sorry i dont know.
for a gimbal im sure it's fine.

No worries Jordan! Thanks for your input. It seems like you can control it with your iPhone so that's pretty cool for me. I use waveform to expose, but I've read more than once that false color is the proper way to go.

I'm fine with the heat. I'll survive that I think...

 

[adrian vedder]

Excellent post Adrian.

But I point to the statements highlighted as suitable for people who are willing to settle.

Most of us who stay on the upgrade path are sympatico with RED.

RED never settles.

Hehe fantastic reply Elsie. I mean, I'm the first one in the bandwagon. Otherwise I'd be buying the aforementioned older epic.

 

[Elsie N]

Hehe fantastic reply Elsie. I mean, I'm the first one in the bandwagon. Otherwise I'd be buying the aforementioned older epic.

Heh, yeah, I was pretty much just using your post as a great example of a statement to anchor my post to.

It was an oversight on my part not to point out that you were not in the group I was addressing, as confirmed by your saying...

Here's to new and better cameras!! (Except for an Alexa Mini 2!! Hehehe)

 

[Brian Merlen]

I have to imagine reason why Alexa Classic's are selling is I don't believe they're eligible for sensor upgrade (allegedly) being unveiled by Arri at NAB 2016. Could be a lot to spend $30K on essentially EOL camera.

Because of how they build them with FFPG boards I don't think any Arri will ever be upgraded much. It's only as much eol as any camera is outside of red. Originally red wasn't going to do this forever and I actually irked JJ suggesting he should. So we have been lucky cuz modules was the plan not infinite trade ins. They have been very kind to grace us like this. Lately I was annoying them to donate all the used MXs to schools. I like the upgrade program personally but plenty of other brands are happy to sell us EOL cameras since none do upgrades really.

People keep saying Arri will have a new sensor but where is the SXT from NAB? Or the months and months mini wait list still going on? Clearly they can't release mini 2 if hundreds of people are waiting on mini 1s? I know they will have new tech but XT will be the oldest in the line up not mini or Amira and the new sensor probably will fit better not in a mini I'm guessing too until they work out cooling so I'm betting SXT and given the specs it looks pretty incremental relative to mini or Amira, more like just getting a xt caught up on the uprez shindig and luts with wireless control

 

[Mark T Workman]

Does the pace of technological/camera advancements require a reassessment for owner/operator business models? Does it no longer make sense for less established names / people who don't make enough? Seems maybe people need to knuckle down on their business plans??? I for one am happy with the announcement timing but I dont own a scarlet dragon. How vitally do clients hire people attached to a particular camera (red)? Is that a massive factor. Im still pretty happy with the mx as are my clients but im looking forward to the dragon improvements

Good points Dean! I am still a little envious of my fellow Scarlet owners who didn't upgrade to Dragon because I built a computer first specifically to operate with my Scarlet MX, worked well and now have to deal with an editing situation I can only describe as evolving at best now that I have a Scarlet Dragon! Never mind the cash, LOL since I am basically in what I consider to be a reverse engineering process (Camera to computer) now unfortunately or not!

I will be most interested in seeing how Scarlet W inter-cuts with Scarlet and Epic Dragon since the picture has been improved. I am certainly glad to have the choices of using EPIC, Epic Dragon, Scarlet W or Weapon as B camera options and will consider these carefully over time. I am still glad to have invested twice in RED as what I learned from my time with Scarlet MX was that I seriously preferred the 5K B Roll shots I did over the 4K...

 

[Andrii Aksonov]

Is a new Scarlet-W better than Scarlet Dragon?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Is a new Scarlet-W better than Scarlet Dragon?

Yes. Much. Twice the Data Rate. And new DSMC2 format (Prores Internal, Wifi, better DR and color, etc,).

 

[Fernando Tufiño]

I believe is a great camera for people who didn´t get to come in yet to the Scarlet Dragon party. Sadly that`s not my case.

Basically owning a Scarlet MX (2012-2014) allowed me to start to get in the game and I got paid fairly better over time. That allowed me to get all the cool accessories to go with a professional cinema camera and go for the Dragon upgrade in 2015.

But I don´t understand the early announcement. We all knew something new was coming in the DSMC2 body between Raven and Weapon. I´ve been working steadily, saving for it and also investing in a new Raven because it`gonna be the greatest budget dragon camera out there (when there`s no budget for an Epic Dragon, it`s usually the same for PL glass).

But having the Scarlet Dragon for less than a year, and also having to spend on other gear to have a more complete package (how about making a living too??) Scarlet W is making it more difficult for a midlevel camera owner to stay in the game.
This announcement should have come during NAB, with delivery in July.

I don´t know what most people think, but I don´t feel like dropping 10k+ $us on RED every year, unless I owned a Weapon and could be able to charge accordingly to my clients.
If this is gonna be the case from now on, then I suggest selling more affordable cameras like the rest of the companies.
I also didn´t like the "you get to keep your camera" marketing approach. That`s really not a deal, even though I think everything RED has been doing to this point is amazing and a great deal for most customers.

Scarlet D will never be better than an Epic Dragon (or Weapon) and it should never be as cheap as a Raven, but now with Scarlet W coming so early, you don´t really need one.
We know face this real issue with less time to react. That´s a whole lot of pressure for mid-level people starting to get steam.

I really hope the Scarlet D owners discount for the Scarlet W last more than a year, because I´ll have to pay for it with my Scarlet D and Raven until I sell my Scarlet D, by then of course there will be another 10k+ announcement coming soon!