Scarlet-W announcement only really hurt Scarlet-D owners

[Stacey Spears]

It's about the relationships

So true. I have made lots of friends and built strong relationships because of RED and Reduser. Every time I attend a Reducation I make new connections too.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Ultimately, it's not about the specs. It's about the relationships, history, and skills. But timing is everything, and WEAPON-CF is the product of the hour right now.

Agreed. My clients aren't familiar with the differences in the RED lineup/cameras, so our focus remains QUALITY OF WORK!

For us, upgrading to DSMC2 would be about investing in better picture quality...not better rentals rates...

 

[Tom Greenberg]

But Scarlet is a terrible investment as a rental item. And mark my words, the Raven and Scarlet-W will be terrible rental items for the same reason.

I don't really agree with this. I think it is market and client dependent. While Scarlet MX was never a great rental performer, Scarlet Dragon has done pretty well in my mid-size market.

Certainly there is more demand for Epic Dragon right now, but there are also a considerable number of lower budget productions that want a full-featured camera but can't afford or justify the Epic Dragon rate. Now with ProRes, I see the Scarlet-W doing an even better job of filling this niche. I have ordered both Weapon MG and Scarlet-W, and expect they will appeal to different clients in different price ranges. I also expect Scarlet-W to ease some of the downward pressure on Weapon rates. And Scarlet-W will also make an outstanding B-cam to Weapon, with the advantage of sharing all modules and accessories. Of course YMMV...

 

[Nick Morrison]

Now with ProRes, I see the Scarlet-W doing an even better job of filling this niche. I have ordered both Weapon and Scarlet-W, and expect they will appeal to different clients in different price ranges. I also expect Scarlet-W to ease some of the downward pressure on Weapon rates. And Scarlet-W will also make an outstanding B-cam to Weapon, with the advantage of sharing all modules and accessories. Of course YMMV...

I agree with this too.

I think being able to shoot 5K 4:1 on both Weapon Magnesium and Scarlet Weapon...is huge.

Half our work on Epic Dragon is shot 5K 8:1, so Scarlet-Weapon will make a SUPERB B-Cam indeed.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

The WEAPON-Mg will rent to the 80% of the market that can only spend 20% of the money, which translates mathematically to 6% of the revenue per customer compared with those who rent to the top 20% of the market.

Once again, I think this is too broad a generalization. I think market needs and budgets will dictate what rents and what doesn't. I expect Weapon MG to rent very well in my market, while Weapon CF rates would put it out of reach of most of my clients.

 

[Akin A]

Well I'm just glad I upgraded my Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon in that short time that the offer was available.
Once I went Epic, it's hard to not want the best from now on. They got me hooked. Just trying to delay any future purchases as long as I can though, lol.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Once again, I think this is too broad a generalization. I think market needs and budgets will dictate what rents and what doesn't. I expect Weapon MG to rent very well in my market, while Weapon CF rates would put it out of reach of most of my clients.

Agreed. I think Magnesium may become the "standard" rental (much like an Amira), whereas CF and 8K are reserved for higher end jobs (like an XT).

 

[Brian Merlen]

i think i can see where both sides are coming from, the cycles are quick and people who don't get units for up to a year face shorter windows. but red also freaks everyone out announcing early too, which is helpful but we all respond like chickens with their heads cut off and the sky falling instead.... i paid a deposit on 8k quite some time ago, and guess what i don't care if it takes a year or more cuz I'm making money on this unit still. one day ill get allocated... i like others benefited from the small cheap upgrades, i admit this one is pricy, and somewhat worrisome to my business model...but then again...

its sensor is almost as high as the alexa 65, and the cost was the same as a single day renting alexa 65, so i think this is democratization if there has ever been any. any of you going to shoot 65 film like 8 just did? or even phantom 65? its damn cool that red has enabled us to even shoot this format for cheap, cuz historically the studios and the money holders and deciders had so much sway. red has enabled me to finally have a technology that few can get to at this level of quality...

i also started on scarlet MX like many others...today i have a epic dragon, amira, alexa mni, a phantom miro, and this will continue to grow. i think a huge part of it was my red knowledge and rentals became a good secondary business. right now I'm encoding files, cuz i work in lots of capacities and have lots of skill sets now thanks to my red, RU, the internet, whatever i read. its really a good time to be alive, and if red isn't your horse its fine. go get an alexa classic used, or something prosumer, whatever it is and go for it. but its a tough game all over town and id argue red/arri is the safest body game (or phantom) but glass game is eternally rewarding anyway. lots of better pieces of kit than sensors to begin with

 

[jordan levy]

Agreed. I think Magnesium may become the "standard" rental (much like an Amira), whereas CF and 8K are reserved for higher end jobs (like an XT).

exactly what i was going to say.
the name scarlet alone excludes it almost from any professional job for me, it will always be the top tier, which will be any of the weapon line ups. producers also know the gray camera is the one shooting BTS as son as the dragon was available ive never seen another MX camera on set, but i know people industries differ, so for each its own.
that's why for me im sticking with raven as a personal camera to do favors with, or a throw in for free 2nd camera, maybe to shoot a simultaneous wide, or one with vintage lenses on it to throw in some unapproved art, or in special situations a directors go have fun camera, like the arri 2c used to be for me. i like i can just make it as small as possible with no cables, and why im patiently waiting for a cool side handle that can control some focus, iris and power, then it can be a real run and gun stealthy package.

 

[Nick Morrison]

exactly what i was going to say.
the name scarlet alone excludes it almost from any professional job for me, it will always be the top tier, which will be any of the weapon line ups. producers also know the gray camera is the one shooting BTS as son as the dragon was available ive never seen another MX camera on set, but i know people industries differ, so for each its own.
that's why for me im sticking with raven as a personal camera to do favors with, or a throw in for free 2nd camera, maybe to shoot a simultaneous wide, or one with vintage lenses on it to throw in some unapproved art, or in special situations a directors go have fun camera, like the arri 2c used to be for me. i like i can just make it as small as possible with no cables, and why im patiently waiting for a cool side handle that can control some focus, iris and power, then it can be a real run and gun stealthy package.

Jordan we pretty much see eye to eye.

I also think we'll be seeing A LOT of Ravens on sets, being used in fun, unusual ways...

 

[adrian vedder]

From someone who has absolutely no ties to this conversation, (I just gave the downpayment for an Alexa Mini, after careful consideration, and before you all jump on me, it was strictly market related, where I live lots of people have RED but pretty much no one has Alexas) I'd like to offer a few words:

RED is a FANTASTIC company. In a good day you can come over here and talk to Jarred who happens to be the owner and the maker of these things. Good luck talking to mr. Arri or Mr. Sony or Mrs. Canon. They're shadows behind the faces behind the faces of the sales department. RED feels like a community before anything else (And it might be because it is).

That being said, they're also a company (They're a company first actually). That means they need to make a profit, and that means they need to sell stuff. And how do they sell stuff? By throwing out all the shiny stuff at us! Let's face it guys, The RED One was more than enough, if you want to push it, the first Epic was all you could ever ask for (As well as the first Alexa, assuming it were 4K). Just as, save for fuel economy, a 10 year old BMW is more than you could ever need.

Need, not want.

We want the new, the cool, the edgy. And that's fine, if you're willing to pay for it. Some folks here are willing to, some are not. Both are ok. To make your own stuff, a Scarlet Dragon is more than you could ever, ever need (And also your clients. If they REALLY want a Weapon or the Scarlet W, go and rent that for a day, end of story). However, if you want to rent your equipment, you need to have the latest, which, yeah, will come out every year. It's how the market works (The car rental market works like that too. And those guys also make a profit changing models every year), deal with it, OR not, and just don't rent.

If every company in the world was as innovative, creative and easy going as RED, we'd be in a much better place. Also, quick shoutout to you guys in this forum. I've learned more about filmmaking in this place than anywhere else, on or offline.

Yes, I know every next question will be why the mini instead of the weapon (Despite the market related question hehe). You guys are also the biggest fanboys on earth, this side of an apple forum!

Here's to new and better cameras!! (Except for an Alexa Mini 2!! Hehehe)

 

[Nick Morrison]

From someone who has absolutely no ties to this conversation, (I just gave the downpayment for an Alexa Mini, after careful consideration, and before you all jump on me, it was strictly market related, where I live lots of people have RED but pretty much no one has Alexas) I'd like to offer a few words:

RED is a FANTASTIC company. In a good day you can come over here and talk to Jarred who happens to be the owner and the maker of these things. Good luck talking to mr. Arri or Mr. Sony or Mrs. Canon. They're shadows behind the faces behind the faces of the sales department. RED feels like a community before anything else (And it might be because it is).

That being said, they're also a company (They're a company first actually). That means they need to make a profit, and that means they need to sell stuff. And how do they sell stuff? By throwing out all the shiny stuff at us! Let's face it guys, The RED One was more than enough, if you want to push it, the first Epic was all you could ever ask for (As well as the first Alexa, assuming it were 4K). Just as, save for fuel economy, a 10 year old BMW is more than you could ever need.

Need, not want.

We want the new, the cool, the edgy. And that's fine, if you're willing to pay for it. Some folks here are willing to, some are not. Both are ok. To make your own stuff, a Scarlet Dragon is more than you could ever, ever need (And also your clients. If they REALLY want a Weapon or the Scarlet W, go and rent that for a day, end of story). However, if you want to rent your equipment, you need to have the latest, which, yeah, will come out every year. It's how the market works (The car rental market works like that too. And those guys also make a profit changing models every year), deal with it, OR not, and just don't rent.

If every company in the world was as innovative, creative and easy going as RED, we'd be in a much better place. Also, quick shoutout to you guys in this forum. I've learned more about filmmaking in this place than anywhere else, on or offline.

Yes, I know every next question will be why the mini instead of the weapon (Despite the market related question hehe). You guys are also the biggest fanboys on earth, this side of an apple forum!

Here's to new and better cameras!! (Except for an Alexa Mini 2!! Hehehe)

Only thing I'd say is RED seems to be unique in that they do not appear to be exclusively profit driven.

One of the benefits, I assume, of being owned by a relentless and passionate billionaire.

RED has "given away" profits so many times on this board... I've almost lost count!

Can you imagine Arri, Canon or Sony selling RED ONE MX's for $4K?

 

[Stacey Spears]

and before you all jump on me... You guys are also the biggest fanboys on earth, this side of an apple forum!

Great post! Fanboys often do more harm than good be it computers, game consoles or cameras.

I completely agree on want vs. need and I certainly fall into the want category.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Yes, I know every next question will be why the mini instead of the weapon (Despite the market related question hehe). You guys are also the biggest fanboys on earth, this side of an apple forum!

I think you'll be surprised by how non-plussed people will be by your Mini purchase.

REDs and Mini overlap quite a lot, so doubt your purchase would raise that many eye-brows...to be honest...

 

[jordan levy]

From someone who has absolutely no ties to this conversation, (I just gave the downpayment for an Alexa Mini, after careful consideration, and before you all jump on me, it was strictly market related, where I live lots of people have RED but pretty much no one has Alexas) I'd like to offer a few words:

RED is a FANTASTIC company. In a good day you can come over here and talk to Jarred who happens to be the owner and the maker of these things. Good luck talking to mr. Arri or Mr. Sony or Mrs. Canon. They're shadows behind the faces behind the faces of the sales department. RED feels like a community before anything else (And it might be because it is).

That being said, they're also a company (They're a company first actually). That means they need to make a profit, and that means they need to sell stuff. And how do they sell stuff? By throwing out all the shiny stuff at us! Let's face it guys, The RED One was more than enough, if you want to push it, the first Epic was all you could ever ask for (As well as the first Alexa, assuming it were 4K). Just as, save for fuel economy, a 10 year old BMW is more than you could ever need.

Need, not want.

We want the new, the cool, the edgy. And that's fine, if you're willing to pay for it. Some folks here are willing to, some are not. Both are ok. To make your own stuff, a Scarlet Dragon is more than you could ever, ever need (And also your clients. If they REALLY want a Weapon or the Scarlet W, go and rent that for a day, end of story). However, if you want to rent your equipment, you need to have the latest, which, yeah, will come out every year. It's how the market works (The car rental market works like that too. And those guys also make a profit changing models every year), deal with it, OR not, and just don't rent.

If every company in the world was as innovative, creative and easy going as RED, we'd be in a much better place. Also, quick shoutout to you guys in this forum. I've learned more about filmmaking in this place than anywhere else, on or offline.

Yes, I know every next question will be why the mini instead of the weapon (Despite the market related question hehe). You guys are also the biggest fanboys on earth, this side of an apple forum!

Here's to new and better cameras!! (Except for an Alexa Mini 2!! Hehehe)

i have to say im an alexa fan too, depends on what im shooting, but after using the mini a couple of times its not going to be my first choice in arriflex cameras unless it specifically needed for size purposes. my assistant dont even like it because of where the ports and card slot are located, you have to have a battery on rods behind the camera and it blocks the ports unless its brought a few inches back and even then it's tough to pull a card.
as an operator, i didnt like it mainly because it gets super hot, especially the fans off the back end(where the ports are) that was blowing hot air in my face the whole shoot, as well as heating up the battery that was inches from the fan. i much prefer the amira if i all i need is prores.
other then that, i cant understand, unless you are a rental house in buying one, mainly because they arent true 4k yet, netflix wont even let you shoot original series with them. the new varicam is taking off in the tv dept, and a lot of tv guys shooting comedy love the sony too. Red seems to be for anything dramatic and high end on the streaming services, so i dont see an alexa being a good investment for an individual, unless maybe youve cornered the market in your area and are able to make back $70k in the next year in half in rentals.

 

[Julio Quintana]

i have to say im an alexa fan too, depends on what im shooting, but after using the mini a couple of times its not going to be my first choice in arriflex cameras unless it specifically needed for size purposes. my assistant dont even like it because of where the ports and card slot are located, you have to have a battery on rods behind the camera and it blocks the ports unless its brought a few inches back and even then it's tough to pull a card.
as an operator, i didnt like it mainly because it gets super hot, especially the fans off the back end(where the ports are) that was blowing hot air in my face the whole shoot, as well as heating up the battery that was inches from the fan. i much prefer the amira if i all i need is prores.
other then that, i cant understand, unless you are a rental house in buying one, mainly because they arent true 4k yet, netflix wont even let you shoot original series with them. the new varicam is taking off in the tv dept, and a lot of tv guys shooting comedy love the sony too. Red seems to be for anything dramatic and high end on the streaming services, so i dont see an alexa being a good investment for an individual, unless maybe youve cornered the market in your area and are able to make back $70k in the next year in half in rentals.

Ha! Your response to Adrian's thoughtful post is basically "Alexa sucks". Like he predicted.

 

[Clayton Taylor]

Actually I think it hurt the Raven pre-orders more than anything. I'm doing the "queue" put together - I know it's nowhere NEAR the official preorder just us on the forum who are curious about where we lie in here... got quite a few posts yesterday of people swapping from Raven to Scarlet W preorders - have to clean the list up this morning.

 

[Matt Adair]

i didnt like it mainly because it gets super hot, especially the fans off the back end(where the ports are) that was blowing hot air in my face the whole shoot, as well as heating up the battery that was inches from the fan

I think this will depends which part of the world you. at the moment of the shoot. If you are like me in New England this time of year you will definitely love that warm air in your Face

 

[Andy Corleone]

I definitely agree with almost everything you said particularly

For Scarlet-X owners specifically, the Dragon-upgrade never really made sense; it literally cost more than the entire camera did. Prior to Dragon, the previous upgrade (M to MX) was only $4750... Dragon was supposed to be the same, then it got pushed to ~$6k, then it was $9500, then $12500 for a couple months, before settling back to $9500 (or buying outright for a whopping $14500 -- which *really* didn't make sense). Fast-Foward only a few short months, and now we have Scarlet-W for essentially the same price as *just* the Dragon-upgrade, while Raven is almost *half* the cost of the upgrade (both of which net you a whole new camera with quite a few useful extras, like wifi and prores). So while technology moves fast and all, that's kinda crazy from an ROI/Amortization POV (worse than even that spontaneous 33% price cut of Epic-X barely a year after it was readily available).

Personally, even if I was first in line to get a Scarlet-Dragon upgrade, I likely wouldn't have made $9500 *more* than what I did with my Scarlet-X in that same timeframe. In fact, (being that hindsight is 20/20) an Epic-X upgrade would've likely been a much better play than going to Scarlet-Dragon (in terms of upgrade-speed [it was an instant swap], rentability, and/or being hired out based solely on kit).

 

[adrian vedder]

i have to say im an alexa fan too, depends on what im shooting, but after using the mini a couple of times its not going to be my first choice in arriflex cameras unless it specifically needed for size purposes. my assistant dont even like it because of where the ports and card slot are located, you have to have a battery on rods behind the camera and it blocks the ports unless its brought a few inches back and even then it's tough to pull a card.
as an operator, i didnt like it mainly because it gets super hot, especially the fans off the back end(where the ports are) that was blowing hot air in my face the whole shoot, as well as heating up the battery that was inches from the fan. i much prefer the amira if i all i need is prores.
other then that, i cant understand, unless you are a rental house in buying one, mainly because they arent true 4k yet, netflix wont even let you shoot original series with them. the new varicam is taking off in the tv dept, and a lot of tv guys shooting comedy love the sony too. Red seems to be for anything dramatic and high end on the streaming services, so i dont see an alexa being a good investment for an individual, unless maybe youve cornered the market in your area and are able to make back $70k in the next year in half in rentals.

Hehehe I know, I know! Alright, I'll explain myself:

It's really market driven. I'm in Mexico (And not even Mexico City, but Guadalajara, which is the second largest city in the country). There's like 20 REDs in town, but only one single Alexa XR which is kinda old by now. Often productions come to town and they want an Alexa, and they have to get one either in Mexico City or the states, which gets expensive quickly. Also, there's only 3 or 4 Minis in the whole country, so I'll try to get some of that cake. Also, if you're a local and want to separate from the rest, you can use the Alexa and say it's not a RED (Note that if I lived in a place where there's 20 Alexas and only a single old RED, I'd jump on the Weapon for sure!). So yes, my plan is to get back the money in a year-year and a half, sell the Mini and buy... Whatever there is around in a year and a half.

To be honest with you guys, I think Sony, RED and Alexas are all fantastic cameras (I know, sony look... They also don't have a crop factor, have light codecs, great slo mo and are almost dumb proof). If you pick any of those cameras and are not able to produce mind blowing images, that's on you, not on the camera. Canon used to be like that (And I still think Canon color science might be the best overall if you're going from in camera to final cut without grading), but they're so limited now, it's almost a joke ($16K for the new C300 and I won't get anything beyond 30p in 4K??? Are you serious??).

If it was just for me, I'm almost a 100% sure I'd just buy that new Scarlet W since it's a fraction of the cost of the Mini and you can do 99% of the same thing. Hell I'd settle for Raven if it had a PL mount.

The one thing that has no competition, again, is this forum. Best lenses database, best marketplace, best free cinematography lessons, best technical lessons, best dumb arguments (Hello 10 pages of bashing a guy for saying he's not excited about a new camera! ^_^), etc.

Have you guys ever been to the Sony or Arri forums?? It's dead. The Arri one, literally. I'm the only person who has ever posted a question there and it got answered TWO days latter... by a mod!

Anyways, next time any of you comes to mexico, let me know, I'll buy you a tequila shot.