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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet-W announcement only really hurt Scarlet-D owners

Andy Corleone said:
wow I definltly don't agree with you but I can tell you are the kind of person red is after with these half upgrades every 12 months.
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I do like to stay on top of tech. I don't actually upgrade my iPhone every year, but I am happy they have a new one every year and I have the opportunity to get one if I want. There is still a lot of room for improvement with digital cameras. Until they reach the point of diminishing returns, I want to them to keep advancing.

I know there is no convincing you otherwise. You have your opinion and you have voiced it and I respect that. Best of luck. :)
 
Andy Corleone said:
wow I definltly don't agree with you but I can tell you are the kind of person red is after with these half upgrades every 12 months.
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What do you mean "the kind of person red is after"? Is that what you think RED does? Goes after people and their money?? That's what Canon and Sony do for sure. But RED? RED was founded by a guy who made dirt bike handgrips and then goggles and sunglasses. He didn't have to do ANYTHING. He already had all the money. He founded a camera company because he believed in it. Spent a shit ton of his own money. Do you think RED can stay in business by sitting on its collective ass? The only reason that any of us have the cameras we do is because they kept innovating. And you want them to stop to "protect" your investment? You are in this for all the wrong reasons dood.
 
I think there is no loss of Money, until you sell your Camera. You can make the same Money for a Job like before the skarlet w. anoumcment.
So it doesn't matter!
Marinus
 
With all due respect... For every few that get upset about depreciation, there are MULTIPLES MORE that will benefit from older models going on the market because someone upgraded... and those cameras change lives! Some guy working with his 5D MKIII or BMCC is now being afforded the opportunity to have access to a higher end camera and can now begin his own growth from being allowed hands on time with a camera that would have otherwise been out of his reach.... To me.... That's truly special...

On a side note.. If you can't recoup the cost of the upgrade from scarlet-D to Scarlet-W with the 1-2 years you've just extended in the life of your rental... well it seems that it's not really the cameras fault but more your demographics needs working against you. That being said... I hope it all works out for you in the end!
 
The announcement of a new camera has zero impact on an ability w/ an existing owned camera.

RED-ONE MX's are still out there in use... just say'n
 
I hate to be the reality check here, but if you purchased a Scarlet-D with the hopes of generating an income just off rentals, you had a flawed approach to begin with. The rental market is always going to want the newest gear available. You would think that if productions would pay $1000 for a $50K camera, then they would pay $500 or a $25K camera. But in practice, productions with money will pay $1500 for the $50K camera, and $200 for the $25K camera. The reason for this is that no expensive DP ever says, "I guess I don't really need 6K resolution for this project, so I'll recommend the 5K version to save the production money".

Scarlets have always been amazing cameras for owner-operators who are hired for their skills, where the production doesn't know or care about that last .5K resolution.

But Scarlet is a terrible investment as a rental item. And mark my words, the Raven and Scarlet-W will be terrible rental items for the same reason.
 
Julio Quintana said:
I hate to be the reality check here, but if you purchased a Scarlet-D with the hopes of generating an income just off rentals, you had a flawed approach to begin with. The rental market is always going to want the newest gear available. You would think that if productions would pay $1000 for a $50K camera, then they would pay $500 or a $25K camera. But in practice, productions with money will pay $1500 for the $50K camera, and $200 for the $25K camera. The reason for this is that no expensive DP ever says, "I guess I don't really need 6K resolution for this project, so I'll recommend the 5K version to save the production money".

Scarlets have always been amazing cameras for owner-operators who are hired for their skills, where the production doesn't know or care about that last .5K resolution.

But Scarlet is a terrible investment as a rental item. And mark my words, the Raven and Scarlet-W will be terrible rental items for the same reason.
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As one who started on the Scarlet path back in 2012, I can back thse words 100%. Not only this, every time I did manage to get a hire for my Scarlet it was more trouble than it was worth. Not to say it can't be done, but keep this in mind.
 
Julio Quintana said:
I hate to be the reality check here, but if you purchased a Scarlet-D with the hopes of generating an income just off rentals, you had a flawed approach to begin with. The rental market is always going to want the newest gear available. You would think that if productions would pay $1000 for a $50K camera, then they would pay $500 or a $25K camera. But in practice, productions with money will pay $1500 for the $50K camera, and $200 for the $25K camera. The reason for this is that no expensive DP ever says, "I guess I don't really need 6K resolution for this project, so I'll recommend the 5K version to save the production money".

Scarlets have always been amazing cameras for owner-operators who are hired for their skills, where the production doesn't know or care about that last .5K resolution.

But Scarlet is a terrible investment as a rental item. And mark my words, the Raven and Scarlet-W will be terrible rental items for the same reason.
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GREAT POINT.
 
Yeah, Scarlet is definitely and owner/operator camera.
 
This is a good thread. Enjoyed reading it. Two comments and I will shut up and let you guys continue...

Nick, my sincere best wishes. Sometimes the biggest regrets in life are not risks we take, but the ones we don't take. Good on you...

Andy, "the kind of person red is after with these half upgrades every 12 months"? Upgrading is on option. Take it or leave it. Some people who have been happily shooting EPIC M-X flat out bought new WEAPONS. Trust us, much easier on everyone on a variety of levels to just do the buy all new, buy all new, rinse and repeat. And, probably, when you add everything up, makes RED more money.

But Jim and Jarred felt strongly that if they were customers, they would want the option to upgrade. So, that's what we do.
 
I agree with Julio; Scarlet (and Raven) are Owner/Op cameras, and not well positioned for rentals (certainly not for productions with worthwhile rental budgets).

That said, I also see what Andy is saying, too. For Scarlet-X owners specifically, the Dragon-upgrade never really made sense; it literally cost more than the entire camera did. Prior to Dragon, the previous upgrade (M to MX) was only $4750... Dragon was supposed to be the same, then it got pushed to ~$6k, then it was $9500, then $12500 for a couple months, before settling back to $9500 (or buying outright for a whopping $14500 -- which *really* didn't make sense). Fast-Foward only a few short months, and now we have Scarlet-W for essentially the same price as *just* the Dragon-upgrade, while Raven is almost *half* the cost of the upgrade (both of which net you a whole new camera with quite a few useful extras, like wifi and prores). So while technology moves fast and all, that's kinda crazy from an ROI/Amortization POV (worse than even that spontaneous 33% price cut of Epic-X barely a year after it was readily available).

Personally, even if I was first in line to get a Scarlet-Dragon upgrade, I likely wouldn't have made $9500 *more* than what I did with my Scarlet-X in that same timeframe. In fact, (being that hindsight is 20/20) an Epic-X upgrade would've likely been a much better play than going to Scarlet-Dragon (in terms of upgrade-speed [it was an instant swap], rentability, and/or being hired out based solely on kit).

On the flipside, and to be blunt, if you're stressing about this stuff, you're likely not in a position (professionally and/or financially) to need such expensive kit. If you could barely afford a Scarlet-Dragon (or it's upgrade) and are now pissed because, come March, your SD will be "old hat" and the amount of jobs your vying for will erode further, then bail out now. Sell it for a decent chunk of change while you can and buy some 4k DSLRs to hold you over until the dust settles (or, more optimistically, hold you over until your work is so well paid that you can readily afford this stuff!) There is no Raven/ScarletW-priced accessories or media, and those things are necessary; a $6k camera quickly turns into $10k shootable package, which quickly turns into $15k production-ready-package, so bare that in mind.
 
Brent@RED said:
But Jim and Jarred felt strongly that if they were customers, they would want the option to upgrade. So, that's what we do.
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The upgrade program has allowed me to get where I am at in terms of cameras. If I had to buy a Forged Weapon outright, I would not own one today. So I just wanted to say THANK YOU for continuing to offer the upgrade programs! For me, it is a nice stepping stone to get something I otherwise could not afford by taking baby steps from the RED ONE all the way to the RED WEAPON. Buy one, make some money, trade-in towards a bigger one, rinse and repeat.
 
John Brennick said:
With all due respect... For every few that get upset about depreciation, there are MULTIPLES MORE that will benefit from older models going on the market because someone upgraded... and those cameras change lives! Some guy working with his 5D MKIII or BMCC is now being afforded the opportunity to have access to a higher end camera and can now begin his own growth from being allowed hands on time with a camera that would have otherwise been out of his reach.... To me.... That's truly special...!
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Yep that was me and my team. 5D Mark II to second hand Scarlet MX. Now we are looking at a Scarlet-W brand new next year :-)
 
Julio Quintana said:
I hate to be the reality check here, but if you purchased a Scarlet-D with the hopes of generating an income just off rentals, you had a flawed approach to begin with. The rental market is always going to want the newest gear available. You would think that if productions would pay $1000 for a $50K camera, then they would pay $500 or a $25K camera. But in practice, productions with money will pay $1500 for the $50K camera, and $200 for the $25K camera. The reason for this is that no expensive DP ever says, "I guess I don't really need 6K resolution for this project, so I'll recommend the 5K version to save the production money".

Scarlets have always been amazing cameras for owner-operators who are hired for their skills, where the production doesn't know or care about that last .5K resolution.

But Scarlet is a terrible investment as a rental item. And mark my words, the Raven and Scarlet-W will be terrible rental items for the same reason.
Click to expand...

All the RED's that rent out in my City are Epic Dragons. No one's really renting out Scarlets... Maybe to friends / people they know at a low rate but it's not advertised officially. We fit this description pretty much exactly. Clients 95% of the time don't ask or care what our cameras are. They just see the work we've done previously, RED enables us to achieve those images. (But they wouldn't care about 4k vs 5k, my clients). We are going the Scarlet-W route but it won't hire out, it'll be our workhorse for a good 5 years with an MX bcam to back it up.
 
Brent@RED said:
Nick, my sincere best wishes. Sometimes the biggest regrets in life are not risks we take, but the ones we don't take. Good on you...
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Brent. Thanks SO MUCH. Means the world for you to say. Outside of getting married, this is the biggest step of my life. Thanks for noticing, and for being supportive. Really appreciate it!
 
Nick Morrison said:
How rentable do folks think a MAGNESIUM WEAPON would be...vs a CARBON WEAPON?
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WEAPON-Mg won't ship until all the WEAPON-CF are shipped, which means that at present, and for some months, The WEAPON-Mg is not rentable at all, whereas the WEAPON-CF is. Fast forward several months, the biggest, best, and/or most ambitious clients have built trust with those who have supplied them with great products and great services, such as WEAPON-CF. They will likely enjoy repeat business, which means that even after the WEAPON-Mg ships, it may not be very rentable to those clients. Pareto optimality teaches that 20% of the market spends 80% of the money. The WEAPON-Mg will rent to the 80% of the market that can only spend 20% of the money, which translates mathematically to 6% of the revenue per customer compared with those who rent to the top 20% of the market.

Ultimately, it's not about the specs. It's about the relationships, history, and skills. But timing is everything, and WEAPON-CF is the product of the hour right now.
 
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