Scarlet-W announcement only really hurt Scarlet-D owners

[NOSA OBAYIUWANA]

Nick I respectfully disagree with your argument. Customers deserve a reasonable expectation of a good period before new models are released. Scarlet Dragon has only been REALLY available for a short time.

We can try and argue Red's point but at the price point, it is really unfortunate that they have done this.

We may criticise Arri's price but they allow a reasonable period for customers to recoup investment before new models.

Comparing similarly priced cameras (those in the $14k range) - none of them have that short a turn around time. Canon's C300 had a decent life span. The F5 and F55 are still going. Even though the F5 did have only 2 years (but Sony has released the 4k upgrade for less than $1000).

In the U.K Red is really hurting their reputation. More and more people are going either Alexa/Amira or Sony/Canon.... this is a fact. I do not resent them for it..... it is a judgement call the company has made with Blackmagic breathing down their backs. And at the end of the day the company exists to make a profit.

However, please please please people should STOP making excuses for this.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Nick I respectfully disagree with your argument. Customers deserve a reasonable expectation of a good period before new models are released. Scarlet Dragon has only been REALLY available for a short time.

We can try and argue Red's point but at the price point, it is really unfortunate that they have done this.

We may criticise Arri's price but they allow a reasonable period for customers to recoup investment before new models.

Comparing similarly priced cameras (those in the $14k range) - none of them have that short a turn around time. Canon's C300 had a decent life span. The F5 and F55 are still going. Even though the F5 did have only 2 years (but Sony has released the 4k upgrade for less than $1000).

In the U.K Red is really hurting their reputation. More and more people are going either Alexa/Amira or Sony/Canon.... this is a fact. I do not resent them for it..... it is a judgement call the company has made with Blackmagic breathing down their backs. And at the end of the day the company exists to make a profit.

However, please please please people should STOP making excuses for this.

Arri comes out with a new camera (or two) EVERY YEAR. And are about to release a new SENSOR at NAB (that not all their cams will be eligible for). How do you think a recent MINI or AMIRA owner will feel when their camera becomes obsolete in 4 months? Both cams were announced at NAB 2014, EXACT SAME TIME AS SCARLET DRAGON (meaning RED is only 4 months ahead of Arri's product cycle).

The F55 and F5 were radically cannibalized by the FS7. And now theres an FS5 on the way. And dont forget the AS7. I know many F55 and F5 owners are furious about the FS7.

The C300 and C500 were undercut by the C100, and now theres a C300 MkII.

Black Magic releases NEW CAMERAS EVERY YEAR. They are almost disposable.

I dont see how faster and more aggressive camera releases are a "RED" thing.

 

[NOSA OBAYIUWANA]

Not entirely..... but Red's marketing promises what the others do not.... yes I agree, customers should take all this with a pinch of salt.... and the timelines above exaggerated.

 

[Dean Butler]

Does the pace of technological/camera advancements require a reassessment for owner/operator business models? Does it no longer make sense for less established names / people who don't make enough? Seems maybe people need to knuckle down on their business plans??? I for one am happy with the announcement timing but I dont own a scarlet dragon. How vitally do clients hire people attached to a particular camera (red)? Is that a massive factor. Im still pretty happy with the mx as are my clients but im looking forward to the dragon improvements

 

[Andy Corleone]

I think you guys are great Artist that make a perfect used of the tools but at the same time if you are investing $25,000 on a camera now you are making a business decision and if this camera depreciated 50% in less than a year is a terrible business decicison.

From the moment the camera was anouncced and was "in stock" to be purchased at red.com are two diferent dates. The Scarlet-D Camera only be widely available for less than a year now. To give you an example the Weapon Camera was announced at NAB2015 IS NOT available yet ( at least you are one of Jarred buddies)

I perfectly remember Jarred saying the Scarlet-W anountment was going to happen at NAB 2016 not Early xmas 2015.

The next Red Camera is in the works ( Probably one with better battery life, better low light, and accesories that doesn't need screews to be attached) You guys don't realized this is a business for red as well and as long they have a group of guys waiting and willing to pay upgrades every year they are here to serve you. Unfortunately other camera companies release full camera upgrades every 3 years instead of red philosophy that releases half-upgrades every year now (Sensor - Body) this is not right from a Financial perpective.

 

[Dean Butler]

Unfortunately other camera companies release full camera upgrades every 3 years instead of red philosophy that releases half-upgrades every year now (Sensor - Body) this is not right from a Financial perpective.

Agreed. Thats why we held off on scarlet dragon but are diving onto scarler w. You dont have to upgrade everytime. Is it the lure of discounts? Pressure from clients. Our own drive for the best we can get? Our egos? I still dont think the mx is holding me back at all. Its a better camera then I am a filmmaker, but damn that scarletw is well priced with sensational specs

 

[Eric Santiago]

In my neck of the woods as a Scarlet-X owner this offering doesn't affect me at all.
Ive had mine since fall 2012 and hope to get a few more years out of her

 

[Elsie N]

I think you guys are great Artist that make a perfect used of the tools but at the same time if you are investing $25,000 on a camera now you are making a business decision and if this camera depreciated 50% in less than a year is a terrible business decicison.

From the moment the camera was anouncced and was "in stock" to be purchased at red.com are two diferent dates. The Scarlet-D Camera only be widely available for less than a year now. To give you an example the Weapon Camera was announced at NAB2015 IS NOT available yet ( at least you are one of Jarred buddies)

I perfectly remember Jarred saying the Scarlet-W anountment was going to happen at NAB 2016 not Early xmas 2015.

The next Red Camera is in the works ( Probably one with better battery life, better low light, and accesories that doesn't need screews to be attached) You guys don't realized this is a business for red as well and as long they have a group of guys waiting and willing to pay upgrades every year they are here to serve you. Unfortunately other camera companies release full camera upgrades every 3 years instead of red philosophy that releases half-upgrades every year now (Sensor - Body) this is not right from a Financial perpective.

Shouldn't a business owner be more concerned with ROI rather than depreciation? Sure, depreciation is important at tax time but when buying a tool for business, ROI seems more of an issue.

 

[Andy Corleone]

Do you seriousply think ROI is better with Red cameras? , More and more people are owning red cameras these days, in my small city I know there are 4 for sure, the owners really desperate to get money from them willing to rent them for a few hundred dollars a day.
I know of owners Of c300 that were paid within the first few months of the summer. If I had bought a second hand Alexa instead my red for sure would had been fully paid by now only with rentals. As I said before my FS7 was paid with in a few months.

So... No definlty My experience is... ROI is not better with red cameras.

Shouldn't a business owner be more concerned with ROI rather than depreciation? Sure, depreciation is important at tax time but when buying a tool for business, ROI seems more of an issue.

 

[Elsie N]

Do you seriousply think ROI is better with Red cameras? , More and more people are owning red cameras these days, in my small city I know there are 4 for sure, the owners really desperate to get money from them willing to rent them for a few hundred dollars a day.
I know of owners Of c300 that were paid within the first few months of the summer. If I had bought a second hand Alexa instead my red for sure would had been fully paid by now only with rentals. As I said before my FS7 was paid with in a few months.

So... No definlty My experience is... ROI is not better with red cameras.

Then why are you trying to discourage others from buying RED? In your situation I would think you would simply continue shooting your FS7 and whistle all the way to the bank. '-)

 

[Ash Worth]

Do you seriousply think ROI is better with Red cameras? , More and more people are owning red cameras these days, in my small city I know there are 4 for sure, the owners really desperate to get money from them willing to rent them for a few hundred dollars a day.
I know of owners Of c300 that were paid within the first few months of the summer. If I had bought a second hand Alexa instead my red for sure would had been fully paid by now only with rentals. As I said before my FS7 was paid with in a few months.

So... No definlty My experience is... ROI is not better with red cameras.

So perhaps the better camera for you would be the C300. And there are more C300's out there than REDS so this might say something about your market too.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Do you seriousply think ROI is better with Red cameras? , More and more people are owning red cameras these days, in my small city I know there are 4 for sure, the owners really desperate to get money from them willing to rent them for a few hundred dollars a day.
I know of owners Of c300 that were paid within the first few months of the summer. If I had bought a second hand Alexa instead my red for sure would had been fully paid by now only with rentals. As I said before my FS7 was paid with in a few months.

So... No definlty My experience is... ROI is not better with red cameras.

If the quality of the images you produce doesn't effect how successful your business is, then you are right, any decent camera will do; including even an old RED One (lol), or an FS7.

I think you missed Elsie's point about ROI, though. I don't think he was talking about relative ROI among cameras but rather, the fact that you are obsessing on your perception of how much your camera has depreciated in value (a "phantom" number anyway), rather than the fact that you can continue to shoot beautiful images and make money with your current RED; no updates/upgrades/trade-ins required.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I started with Scarlet MX, at THE END OF IT'S CYCLE (ie 4 months before Scarlet Dragon was announced). This was winter 2013.

I upgraded to Epic MX in 2014.

And upgraded to Epic Dragon in 2015.

The camera has paid for itself at EVERY TURN. And no other company would have allowed me to upgrade, STEP BY STEP.

So RED has been a MASSIVE ROI...FOR ME.

In fact, I'M QUITTING MY FULL TIME JOB THIS WEEK!!!

So please bear in mind you are speaking about YOUR EXPERIENCE. Not EVERYONE'S.

For me, RED HAS BEEN THE BEST PURCHASE I EVER MADE.

MY ENTIRE COMPANY'S SUCCESS HAS BEEN, IN LARGE PART, BECAUSE OF OUR REWARDING INVESTMENT IN RED.

Has it been easy? Of course not. I've been working 18hrs a day.

But from my POV, coming from NYC (which is FULL OF REDS, and very competitive)....investing in RED has been immensely rewarding.

Of course I understand how frustrated you are. That's how I felt in 2014 when I realized HOW FAR BEHIND I WAS.

But ultimately the QUALITY OF WORK WE PRODUCED is what mattered to clients. NOT WHAT CAMERAS WE HAD.

One of the best campaigns we ever made was shot on those "lowly" SCARLET MX's:

Do you seriousply think ROI is better with Red cameras? , More and more people are owning red cameras these days, in my small city I know there are 4 for sure, the owners really desperate to get money from them willing to rent them for a few hundred dollars a day.
I know of owners Of c300 that were paid within the first few months of the summer. If I had bought a second hand Alexa instead my red for sure would had been fully paid by now only with rentals. As I said before my FS7 was paid with in a few months.

So... No definlty My experience is... ROI is not better with red cameras.

 

[Brian Pascale]

Good luck with your new venture Nick, but I am sure you will make your own luck with your talent and work ethic. Appreciate all your work and what you have given back to the community.

I started with Scarlet MX, at THE END OF IT'S CYCLE (ie 4 months before Scarlet Dragon was announced). This was winter 2013.

I upgraded to Epic MX in 2014.

And upgraded to Epic Dragon in 2015.

The camera has paid for itself at EVERY TURN. And no other company would have allowed me to upgrade, STEP BY STEP.

So RED has been a MASSIVE ROI...FOR ME.

In fact, I'M QUITTING MY FULL TIME JOB THIS WEEK!!!

So please bear in mind you are speaking about YOUR EXPERIENCE. Not EVERYONE'S.

For me, RED HAS BEEN THE BEST PURCHASE I EVER MADE.

MY ENTIRE COMPANY'S SUCCESS HAS BEEN, IN LARGE PART, BECAUSE OF OUR REWARDING INVESTMENT IN RED.

Has it been easy? Of course not. I've been working 18hrs a day.

But from my POV, coming from NYC (which is FULL OF REDS, and very competitive)....investing in RED has been immensely rewarding.

Of course I understand how frustrated you are. That's how I felt in 2014 when I realized HOW FAR BEHIND I WAS.

But ultimately the QUALITY OF WORK WE PRODUCED is what mattered to clients. NOT WHAT CAMERAS WE HAD.

One of the best campaigns we ever made was shot on those "lowly" SCARLET MX's:

 

[Nick Morrison]

Good luck with your new venture Nick, but I am sure you will make your own luck with your talent and work ethic. Appreciate all your work and what you have given back to the community.

Thanks Brian, very much. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't terrified. I'm quitting a FULL TIME CREATIVE GIG I'VE HAD FOR 12 YEARS!! To focus exclusively on my own company in 2016.

I'm sure I'll take my lumps. But I suppose these things aren't supposed to be easy right?

 

[Andy Corleone]

Good for you but Why you said this: " SUCCESS HAS BEEN, IN LARGE PART, BECAUSE OF OUR REWARDING INVESTMENT IN RED?"

if you elaborate the reasons maybe I will understand. I definitely agree about your last statement: "QUALITY OF WORK WE PRODUCED is what mattered to clients. NOT WHAT CAMERAS WE HAD" you are right what is behind the camera is what matter at the end.

I'm not complaining about the red cameras quality by any means, What I'm saying is Upgrade Frequency and depreciation is so WRONG right now.

But if we are going to thanks RED for bring us an affordable cinema camera 8 years ago I think we should also thanks companies like Blackmagic for pushing companies like red in lowering the prices now.

I started with Scarlet MX, at THE END OF IT'S CYCLE (ie 4 months before Scarlet Dragon was announced). This was winter 2013.

I upgraded to Epic MX in 2014.

And upgraded to Epic Dragon in 2015.

The camera has paid for itself at EVERY TURN. And no other company would have allowed me to upgrade, STEP BY STEP.

So RED has been a MASSIVE ROI...FOR ME.

In fact, I'M QUITTING MY FULL TIME JOB THIS WEEK!!!

So please bear in mind you are speaking about YOUR EXPERIENCE. Not EVERYONE'S.

For me, RED HAS BEEN THE BEST PURCHASE I EVER MADE.

MY ENTIRE COMPANY'S SUCCESS HAS BEEN, IN LARGE PART, BECAUSE OF OUR REWARDING INVESTMENT IN RED.

Has it been easy? Of course not. I've been working 18hrs a day.

But from my POV, coming from NYC (which is FULL OF REDS, and very competitive)....investing in RED has been immensely rewarding.

Of course I understand how frustrated you are. That's how I felt in 2014 when I realized HOW FAR BEHIND I WAS.

But ultimately the QUALITY OF WORK WE PRODUCED is what mattered to clients. NOT WHAT CAMERAS WE HAD.

One of the best campaigns we ever made was shot on those "lowly" SCARLET MX's:

 

[Nick Morrison]

Good for you but Why you said this: " SUCCESS HAS BEEN, IN LARGE PART, BECAUSE OF OUR REWARDING INVESTMENT IN RED?"

Being able to upgrade from Scarlet MX, to Epic MX, to Epic Dragon (over 2 long years)...has been incredibly rewarding for us...and made investing in RED both secure, and aspirational.

But I understand timing is everything, and you may not feel the same way.

Just trying to point out RED's upgrade plans have been very beneficial, and generous, for many.

Best of luck!

 

[Stacey Spears]

What I'm saying is Upgrade Frequency and depreciation is so WRONG right now.

Things simply move faster today than they did in years past. I expect to upgrade every 12-18 months for everything. Tech is moving so fast that companies are pushing each other to move faster and faster.

New products cost less and do more.

 

[Andy Corleone]

wow I definltly don't agree with you but I can tell you are the kind of person red is after with these half upgrades every 12 months.

Things simply move faster today than they did in years past. I expect to upgrade every 12-18 months for everything. Tech is moving so fast that companies are pushing each other to move faster and faster.

New products cost less and do more.[/COLOR]

 

[Elsie N]

wow I definltly don't agree with you but I can tell you are the kind of person red is after with these half upgrades every 12 months.

Me too!