Scarlet Upgrade Possibilities, Best Way to Spend Money

[Jamie Havill]

the reason that i'm loking for a scarlet setup is because i believe that your tools should limit you as little as possible as you learn any new craft. and obviously as you can see fro th Red One, the sky is the limit. i don't wanna shoot documentaries, family get-togethers ect. i want to shoot MOVIES, TV pilots/shows. period. i was eying the canon 5d and the 1d mark 4 but i just can't pull the trigger from things i've seen done with them. don't get me wrong the can handle indie films in the right hands but Steven Spielberg couldn't garner real movies or TV out of them. VDSLRS are good for weddings, indies, music videos and commercials but that's it. having said all that, my questions to you good, knowledgeable people are:

is 2/3 fixed scarlet worth my time? what's a good estated max that a ready to shoot, with all the modules, ff35 setup cost me? am i better off just spending 30k on a red one setup? if i could care less about shooting in 3k or 4k and 1080 is fine for now, what's an acceptable mac setup? the new quad imacs or does it have to be a macpro set up to even get some editing done?

Sorry, I just really feel I need to chime in here.

There are a lot of people getting excited about having a camera that can make movies for a resonable price. But, to me that seems rather odd. Movies cost money to make, and incredible amounts of effort, time, energy, people, negotiating, planning and development. If you think your going to be bashing out quality short movies, the odd feature and TV pilots week in, week out you have an incredible shock heading your way.

I can't fathom why people would be buying a scarlet with these plans in mind. I bust my balls making shorts films, and over the last year I've completed one, and my next begins shooting in February. It's about quality, not quantity. To me, it makes much, much more sense to rent if this is your aim. If your buying to learn, shoot other things day in day out, then obviously this is a different story. But if you're buying to shoot films, then I think, personally, that is a crazy perspective, and you will end up getting extremely little use out of such a significant investment.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

If you think your going to be bashing out quality short movies, the odd feature and TV pilots week in, week out you have an incredible shock heading your way.

Sure, making films - be they short or feature - is hard, financially and practically. The more money you can put in to them the better. . I dont think anyone here is naïve enough to imagine that with the camera they’re going to go out make a blockbuster feature with a widespread release.
If the Scarlet is, as many hope, churning out an image quality that is not only acceptible for TV but films as well- then thats a huge step towards getting something that is visually appealing and dare I say, marketable. Yes, theres everything in front of the camera too, and thats probably best left for another message board.
Who knows, there might be someone out there who has everything they need to make a great film and yet just dont have a camera rental near-by.

 

[Henry Li]

Does anybody know how many minutes of footage you get on a 16gb CF card with the 2/3" Scarlet shoot in 3K raw mode?

I'm curious too. Anyone care to give an educated guess?

 

[Jason Madeja]

I'm curious too. Anyone care to give an educated guess?

it's Redcode 42 for the cards, right? so 42 mb/s * 60 =2520 MB per minute. you have roughly 16000 MB on a 16 GB card so divide that by 2520 and it's a bit over 6 minutes per card. Right?

i think the solid state drive can record redcode 100.

 

[Imran Farouk]

I thought Ted just recently said that the idea of REDCODE had changed and so really those times etc. was a bit off. I'm pretty sure though that they wouldn't limit the 16GB cards to just 42 because that would mean for all those EPIC-X people with CF cards that they don't get to taste that lovely REDCODE 250 without having to spend even more on SSD's etc.

 

[Peter Osinski]

I thought Ted just recently said that the idea of REDCODE had changed and so really those times etc. was a bit off. I'm pretty sure though that they wouldn't limit the 16GB cards to just 42 because that would mean for all those EPIC-X people with CF cards that they don't get to taste that lovely REDCODE 250 without having to spend even more on SSD's etc.

the cf cards are just limited by themselves not by RED. REDCODE 100 and especially levels above that are just way beyond it.

Besides...if you're using a $28,000+ setup, I am sure the 1500 dollars for ssd module plus drive won't be that big of a deal, and you will still likely be able to use cf cards for the option of recording redcode 42,36,28

 

[jimhare]

I think I'm convinced to get the 2/3 inch Scarlet. However, if I do so, will there be a future upgrade option to the S35, or even the Epic?

I don't speak for Red, or know their plans for policy, but my guess is if you want to upgrade, there won't be an option through Red.

That's why the new models are modular, so you only have to replace one or two bits to have a new camera.

If you have a 2/3" brain, sell it and put the funds towards the upgrade.

Everyone needs to remember that the Red One buy back is because they realized Epic is what they should have done in the first place, and wanted to do right by the loyal customers who bought on faith alone.

I wouldn't expect any kind of upgrade through Red.

Buy the 2/3", use it, love it, make money from it. When the next model comes out and you can afford it, buy it.

 

[Jamie Havill]

Sure, making films - be they short or feature - is hard, financially and practically. The more money you can put in to them the better. . I dont think anyone here is naïve enough to imagine that with the camera they’re going to go out make a blockbuster feature with a widespread release.
If the Scarlet is, as many hope, churning out an image quality that is not only acceptible for TV but films as well- then thats a huge step towards getting something that is visually appealing and dare I say, marketable. Yes, theres everything in front of the camera too, and thats probably best left for another message board.
Who knows, there might be someone out there who has everything they need to make a great film and yet just dont have a camera rental near-by.

Fair point Gary, with all possible respect I think maybe your misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.

I'm not saying don't use the Scarlet for film production, and I'm certainly not saying don't buy one.

What I am saying, is if your buying the Scarlet JUST to make films with, then unless like you say there are no rental houses near you and you have everything else ready (I'm pretty sure though unless you live in the Indonesian Komodo islands thats impossible), then rental would be a better option. You simply won't be able to churn enough out to make the invensment worthwhile.

For instance, I almost dropped about $10k a year ago on a HVX200, DOF adapter and other bits and peices for film production. I'm pretty God damn glad I didn't because I'd of used it once! Instead I'm now working using a Red One on my next short, with very high quality lighting and sound gear.

What I'm saying is is your wanting to make just films, and are serious about it, you could use higher quality gear at a much cheaper price by renting.

 

[Alex Kornreich]

I agree with Jamie on this one.

He's saying that there's not just one roadblock to make, as you guys put it, a "marketable" film, there's lots. To make a film that is actually marketable, it requires significant investment in grip and electric, crew, craft/catering, art, talent, locations, etc. All of this, even for a short, in order to be marketable, will cost far more than the cost of purchasing the camera.

I think what Jamie is saying is that you're better off spending that money on those things, and renting, then stretching the budget to purchase a camera.

If you're doing docs or ENG, where you may need a camera here and there for several months, then purchasing may be a more viable option, as renting is way more expensive on a daily basis, rather than weekly.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

Two bulls, a father and his son, are sitting on top of a hill looking down on a heard of 2/3" Scarlets. The young bull says to his father: "hey Dad, let's run down and rent one of them 2/3" Scarlets and make a movie!" The father bull retorts: "no son, let's walk down, buy a 2/3" Scarlet, and make ten movies."

RED renders obsolescence obsolete. This Scarlet will be an amazing camera that is many years ahead of it's time. You're so fortunate to have the opportunity to own it. To be able to shoot anything and everything at anytime. Renting is like flushing money down the toilet. It's putting all your eggs in one basket. Make movies. Make lots of movies. Upgrade your brain when needed. Buy all of your production gear over time. Create your own production studio. Filmmaking isn't the lottery. It's a career. It's a lifestyle. To quote AC/DC: "it's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll".
Plan accordingly.

 

[Sean Lee]

I think renting a Red One package for one day will cost roughly the same as buying a Scarlet 2/3 fixed.

For the cost of renting a Red One package for 3 days, I'd also be able to buy the accompanying filmmaking accessories like a decent tripod & head, additional CF cards etc to go with the Scarlett fixed.

Or, for the cost of renting a Red One package for 4 days, I can buy a Scarlett interchangeable with a set of prime lens plus other accessories.

And you get to keep the entire 2/3 package for other future projects if you buy it the first time instead of renting the Red One.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Two bulls, a father and his son, are sitting on top of a hill looking down on a heard of 2/3" Scarlets. The young bull says to his father: "hey Dad, let's run down and rent one of them 2/3" Scarlets and make a movie!" The father bull retorts: "no son, let's walk down, buy a 2/3" Scarlet, and make ten movies."

RED renders obsolescence obsolete. This Scarlet will be an amazing camera that is many years ahead of it's time. You're so fortunate to have the opportunity to own it. To be able to shoot anything and everything at anytime. Renting is like flushing money down the toilet. It's putting all your eggs in one basket. Make movies. Make lots of movies. Upgrade your brain when needed. Buy all of your production gear over time. Create your own production studio. Filmmaking isn't the lottery. It's a career. It's a lifestyle. To quote AC/DC: "it's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll".
Plan accordingly.

instead of buying gear i would invest in cast/crew....and make one movie with rented gear and great cast/crew instead of 10 movies with no cast/crew.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

Fair point Gary, with all possible respect I think maybe your misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.

I'm not saying don't use the Scarlet for film production, and I'm certainly not saying don't buy one.

What I am saying, is if your buying the Scarlet JUST to make films with, then unless like you say there are no rental houses near you and you have everything else ready (I'm pretty sure though unless you live in the Indonesian Komodo islands thats impossible), then rental would be a better option. You simply won't be able to churn enough out to make the invensment worthwhile.

For instance, I almost dropped about $10k a year ago on a HVX200, DOF adapter and other bits and peices for film production. I'm pretty God damn glad I didn't because I'd of used it once! Instead I'm now working using a Red One on my next short, with very high quality lighting and sound gear.

What I'm saying is is your wanting to make just films, and are serious about it, you could use higher quality gear at a much cheaper price by renting.

Theres nothing I actually disagree with referance to both your points Jamie, and the points Alex has made. I think there are many factors in film production that can either add artificial production value without expense (home made lighting) and things that can make a production look crappy (BAD home made lights). Im upgrading from 720p so the Scarlet is always going to upgrade my game, perhaps, to a resolution that would look great on a cinema screen, which if I happen to make a film worth of being seen by more than my cat then that avenue is possible.

I suppose the best thing is to get the balance of making the camera a financially good investment by using it for corporate work, advertising etc, and the creative side of grabbing a camera one weekend and making a quick short.

The only question I have is this: 2/3" Scarlet or S35?

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

instead of buying gear i would invest in cast/crew....and make one movie with rented gear and great cast/crew instead of 10 movies with no cast/crew.

Since I (and most other indie filmmakers) can't spend a lot of money, I have to spend time instead. To me, time is WAY more valuable than money. Money won't guarantee you a great movie, but time... almost certainly does.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

Since I (and most other indie filmmakers) can't spend a lot of money, I have to spend time instead. To me, time is WAY more valuable than money. Money won't guarantee you a great movie, but time... almost certainly does.

Its the old 'Quick and expensive vs slow and cheap' quandry.

Renting cameras expects that you have a neat schedule, which in turn expects that you have paid actors who will show up when you tell them to.
If you cant afford to pay actors, then you have to rely on negotiation and compromise and your schedule can go out of the window.
Time has different values for everyone, my last lead actress (for example) had a particular taste for Wine Gums, and would gladly give her time if I kept her in good supply of them... As it turns out her time was relativly inexpensive...

 

[Jamie Havill]

I just posted a simple math thing. Renting cost more than buying for the one thing. It was a smarter move for me to buy a VX2000 back in 2001 than to rent it because it was $400 cheaper to buy than to rent (and that's not even counting the days I went out with the camera just to practice).

If I had rented, that would be $400 less that I could spend on all the other things I needed to make my movie.

And, in the end, I was able to sell the VX2000 and get a significant amount of my money back.

If a 2/3" fixed Scarlet costs, to make up an example, $500 per day to rent and you're going to need it for 15 non-consecutive days, you're making a bad budget decision to rent because you're taking $2750 out of your budget that you could be using for cast/crew/other equipment. In that scenario, you could buy the camera, shoot only the one project and then throw the camera in the trash and still come out almost $3,000 ahead.

Hence the "it kind of depends on how much it costs to rent" comment. If it costs $200 per day (though there are some local outfits who charge $350 per day to rent an HVX200, so...), then the rental could be the better choice.

I'm sorry but that is down to absolute negligence on your part, and absolutely not negotiating with the rental place. Rental houses will absolutely kick you in the nuts if you let them, and it seems you did let them. They are a business, and they are expecting huge companies to come in and say 'we need this' and they charge rediculous daily fees that don't get questioned. If you actually pick up the phone, sit down and say 'hey I have this much what can make work for me?' then you will actually get an affordable deal that lets you use equipment you would never, ever be able to afford. It's basic economies of scale. You're talking here about renting a HVX200 or a Scarlet, I'm talking about renting a Red Epic or Red One with a set of Zeiss Super Speed PL mount lenses along with top notch Arri and Joker lighting. Half the battle of making a film is being that organised, and having every single little minute detail planned in advance. Renting a camera for 15 days on and off constantly, and paying a rental houses stock daily rate is not being organised. You're going to get screwed.

For instance, in February I'm renting a Red One (Arri FF, Arri matte box), 6 Zeiss SS MK3 PL mount lenses, lighting package (1.2kw hmi, 2x575 hmi, 2xKino 4', 3xdedo lights), jib arm, O'conner 2060 head, Sennhieser 416p mic, SD mixer/recorder for a grand total of just over $4000 for 11 days. That's because I rang the renatal house, explained my needs, my budget, told them I was negotiating with other places and they drew me up a personalised quote. Their written daily rental price alone for the Red One body is $600. Now, I belive if you were to go and purchase all of these items, you'd be looking at near $75,000, posssibly even more. Now, that has left me with about $10,000 to spend on costume, design, location, actors, and means we're working with equipment that is going to allow us to achieve practically whatever we want.

What I'm saying is if your looking to make JUST films that you expect to be MARKETABLE, and SUCCEED in getting you and your team noticed for what you do, then I think this option makes much, much more sense. It is highly unlikely that 'filming with mates at the weekend on a shoe string budget' will actually make anything of value at all. It's just not how it works.

But, and this is the HUGE but in my argument that you probably havn't realised, if that's what you want, if you want the fun of doing that, if you want to learn, maybe even start your own little business (production/rental) and your not looking to create marketable high quality films, then yes, the scarlet is a great buy. Making quality film is not just about the camera.

Its the old 'Quick and expensive vs slow and cheap' quandry.

Renting cameras expects that you have a neat schedule, which in turn expects that you have paid actors who will show up when you tell them to.
If you cant afford to pay actors, then you have to rely on negotiation and compromise and your schedule can go out of the window.
Time has different values for everyone, my last lead actress (for example) had a particular taste for Wine Gums, and would gladly give her time if I kept her in good supply of them... As it turns out her time was relativly inexpensive...

Being organised enough to know when your actors need to turn up is a very basic fundemental of a successful film. You don't have to pay actors, you have to prove to them that them taking time to work on your project is worth it, and your going to produce something worthwhile for them at the end. I have never, ever paid an actor/actress, and I've had two films shown at nearly 20 festivals in the UK and abroad in the last two years. When you make your first film that people actually sit down and go, hey that's not bad, you'd be very, very suprised how easily actors are willing to work for free. You just need to be able to pay expenses, get good locations, show them there is great potential in the project your asking them to work on. That should be easy with all the money you saved not ploughing into buying your equipment, right? That's the crux of my argument. Quality absolutely outstrips quantity any day of the week. People don't want to watch lot's of films, they wan't to watch quality films. Lot's of bad/mediocre/average films won't get you anywhere. One great film will get you anywhere.

Two bulls, a father and his son, are sitting on top of a hill looking down on a heard of 2/3" Scarlets. The young bull says to his father: "hey Dad, let's run down and rent one of them 2/3" Scarlets and make a movie!" The father bull retorts: "no son, let's walk down, buy a 2/3" Scarlet, and make ten movies."

RED renders obsolescence obsolete. This Scarlet will be an amazing camera that is many years ahead of it's time. You're so fortunate to have the opportunity to own it. To be able to shoot anything and everything at anytime. Renting is like flushing money down the toilet. It's putting all your eggs in one basket. Make movies. Make lots of movies. Upgrade your brain when needed. Buy all of your production gear over time. Create your own production studio. Filmmaking isn't the lottery. It's a career. It's a lifestyle. To quote AC/DC: "it's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll".
Plan accordingly.

Right, got the camera! Let's go! Dude, wait...

 

[Jamie Havill]

I did negotiate the price down. That was the best they would do. They had other people willing to rent the cameras they had, they didn't need to give away the store just for me.

So instead of renting, I bought for less money. Got three years of use out of the thing and then sold it for just over half of what I paid for it.

And, admittedly, I was buying to learn, as well (which worked out pretty well since many of the things I learned by making my own stupid little movies helped me become a better writer, which led to my being able to make a living as a screenwriter now).

For what it's worth, if I buy a Scarlet, it is going to be for me to play around with mostly for fun anyway, so a rental wouldn't be a good choice for me, but I still maintain that, especially in terms of relatively low-cost cameras that have a relatively high demand, it can be more cost effective to buy rather than rent, even if you're an awesome negotiator.

You're welcome to continue to disagree, but I would hope that anyone actually in the situation takes the time to run the numbers rather than just saying "Hey, some dude on the Internet said I was stupid to buy rather than rent, so I'm going to rent." Or vice versa.

I'm not disagreeing with you just because, I was disagreeing if you were purchasing a camera just to make proper films with it. Your not, so I fully support your decision to buy a Scarlet.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

Of course, on the financing side (Rent vs. Purchase), I did neglected the fact that as I'm from the UK, Im going to be paying both VAT and Import Duty, so my expected expenditure of around £4300.. is now looking closer to £5000

 

[Yuri Kudeiko]

Of course, on the financing side (Rent vs. Purchase), I did neglected the fact that as I'm from the UK, Im going to be paying both VAT and Import Duty, so my expected expenditure of around £4300.. is now looking closer to £5000

Hi Gary, so you reckon this is a price for the fixed scarlet? Mate,i actually considering to fly to states at the end of the summer and get one of these beasts shipped to Michigan where my relatives live... And then hopefully i could blag on the customs that its my stills camera which been purchased years ago,years..

 

[David Swan]

Tell me about it ! Especially when Darling Alistair puts VAT back up. Aargh!
I just hope the Pound doesn't sink like a stone, as it did last year.
Dave