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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet update in mid-May

Terry VerHaar said:
To me, that's more of RED's concern than any one individual's. If they have to price it out of your range in order to make a profit, then you will buy something else and they lose a customer. No one is forcing you to buy it and RED has continuously and constantly said (say it with me, now) "Everything is subject to change." Why won't people hear and believe that? Even visionaries can't see into the future and so RED has made it clear they will keep adjusting things as they learn more.

Every individual has to decide what features and capabilities they demand and what those are worth. You can't blame RED for wanting to be profitable. Personally, I'd fault them for pricing their products in such a way that they end up closing their doors. Then where will all their loyal buyers be?

IMHO, right now in the marketplace, the Scarlet 2/3" fixed is better than cameras costing around $8K. If the Scarlet fixed package ends up at $7K or less, it is still a camera worthy of buying.
Click to expand...


woah! i love red as well but a 2/3 inch Fixed camera is worth $7,000 why?

there are plenty of competitors at that price doing just as much more than the 2/3 fixed will be able to do (at 7 k)

at what point do you just decide to buy a used red one... the scarlet shoots 1080 p (3k down rezed)

i will buy one I am on the fence of which i can justify thinking very hard about epic but a red one w/ mysterium x will really be a great camera even for many years to come
 
chrislancaster said:
woah! i love red as well but a 2/3 inch Fixed camera is worth $7,000 why?

there are plenty of competitors at that price doing just as much more than the 2/3 fixed will be able to do (at 7 k)

at what point do you just decide to buy a used red one... the scarlet shoots 1080 p (3k down rezed)

i will buy one I am on the fence of which i can justify thinking very hard about epic but a red one w/ mysterium x will really be a great camera even for many years to come
Click to expand...

EDIT: Sorry, didn't read that right the first time. I thought that meant $7k with a bunch more add-ons not in the kit.

I will say these features I have not seen on other options:

120fps / 150fps burst
Touch to focus and electronic rack focus
Remote camera control built in works to 100 feet?
Wide dynamic range (although slightly less than Epic sensor size)

Even the new 4/3 doesn't have the high frame rates and this is something I actually need for a shoot I have planned later this year.
 
Rick Burnett said:
EDIT: Sorry, didn't read that right the first time. I thought that meant $7k with a bunch more add-ons not in the kit.

I will say these features I have not seen on other options:

120fps / 150fps burst
Touch to focus and electronic rack focus
Remote camera control built in works to 100 feet?
Wide dynamic range (although slightly less than Epic sensor size)

Even the new 4/3 doesn't have the high frame rates and this is something I actually need for a shoot I have planned later this year.
Click to expand...

Sorry i dont want this to sound rude.. but the sensor between Epic FF and 2/3 scarlet is not slight it's huge

I think its priced right compared to competition but 7k is almost double thats why my initial !!! reaction

HDR in camera is really cool tho

i wonder if you will set the exposure brackets and then the camera will do the hdr for you or .. does it just take 3 + pics at the different exposures at the same time


HDR in scarlet will be very interesting to see
 
chrislancaster said:
Sorry i dont want this to sound rude.. but the sensor between Epic FF and 2/3 scarlet is not slight it's huge

I think its priced right compared to competition but 7k is almost double thats why my initial !!! reaction

HDR in camera is really cool tho

i wonder if you will set the exposure brackets and then the camera will do the hdr for you or .. does it just take 3 + pics at the different exposures at the same time


HDR in scarlet will be very interesting to see
Click to expand...

The sensor sizes are different, but that isn't what matters in this case for light sensitivity, it's the actual active pixel area per pixel that matters, and each of the sensors have a different density of pixels as well.

Also, the Epic is not FF, it is S35. (Not sure when the FF version comes out). I'm going for the Scarlet S35 in addition to the Fixed after I do enough work with the fixed to pay for the brain, CF reader and Canon mount.

Yeah, I really want to see what the HDR is all about. They elude to it being very cool.
 
Rick Burnett said:
The sensor sizes are different, but that isn't what matters in this case for light sensitivity, it's the actual active pixel area per pixel that matters, and each of the sensors have a different density of pixels as well.

Also, the Epic is not FF, it is S35. (Not sure when the FF version comes out). I'm going for the Scarlet S35 in addition to the Fixed after I do enough work with the fixed to pay for the brain, CF reader and Canon mount.

Yeah, I really want to see what the HDR is all about. They elude to it being very cool.
Click to expand...

I see...

that makes sense and you are right not FF yet .. do you know th epixel count for scarlet and epic??

i have never seen but i keep hearing people say that high pixel count actually hurts the image quality when doing motion ??
:confused5:


i also noticed that they are both mysterium x does that mean regardless of size the native ISO or ASA will remain the same??

iso 800?
 
chrislancaster said:
I see...

that makes sense and you are right not FF yet .. do you know th epixel count for scarlet and epic??

i have never seen but i keep hearing people say that high pixel count actually hurts the image quality when doing motion ??
:confused5:


i also noticed that they are both mysterium x does that mean regardless of size the native ISO or ASA will remain the same??

iso 800?
Click to expand...

I don't, but the information is somewhere on this site. I tried to do a quick search but I am at work so I didn't have the time to dig deep.

I've not heard anything about high pixel count and image quality, I'm not even sure why that would even matter. Higher pixel counts on slower cameras that compress in camera can cause problems when the motion throws the compression ratio off and the camera cannot handle the data stream. That is certainly not the case here.

One thing Graeme I believe said is "Not all pixels are created equal", which I am sure I just bastardized. This statement should be gospel. The pixel technology used for both cameras is the same. I would imagine the non-active area doesn't change between sensors, only the active area, which is why the light performance will be a little different. Not knowing their design, I am not qualified to answer that. Given what I have seen on here from the M-X, I am not worried.

The truth is, we don't know exactly what is different in these sensors and where any limitations are with the designs in terms of scalability and trade of. What I can say is that EVERY other CMOS video camera I have used in the $7k range with fixed lens disappoints me to no end with the low light sensitivity. I will be SO HAPPY to have the sensitivity of the the RED line.
 
chrislancaster said:
woah! i love red as well but a 2/3 inch Fixed camera is worth $7,000 why?

there are plenty of competitors at that price doing just as much more than the 2/3 fixed will be able to do (at 7 k)

at what point do you just decide to buy a used red one... the scarlet shoots 1080 p (3k down rezed)

i will buy one I am on the fence of which i can justify thinking very hard about epic but a red one w/ mysterium x will really be a great camera even for many years to come
Click to expand...

Show me any other camera that offers anything close to Scarlet 2/3" specs for less than $20k. In fact show me any other 2/3" camera on the market for much less than $20k. The only one I know if is the Panasonic HPX500. Sony's 2/3" models start around $22k. The closest equivalent digital cinema camera is the SI2k starting around $25k. This is not a 1080p video camera, though it can certainly serve quite well as one.

Scarlet will shoot native 3k digital cinema 1.89:1 widescreen format and fully resolve beyond 2k digital cinema projection resolution, something no 1080p camera can do. It will do this at up to 120fps continuous and 150fps burst. Put decent glass on it and it should compete well with the Sony FW900 and FW800 Cine Alta cameras that start at $40k+.

I look at it as an S16mm film camera replacement not a video camera. People have too much of a low end prosumer video mindset about the little Scarlet.
 
David Rasberry said:
Show me any other camera that offers anything close to Scarlet 2/3" specs for less than $20k. In fact show me any other 2/3" camera on the market for much less than $20k. The only one I know if is the Panasonic HPX500. Sony's 2/3" models start around $22k. The closest equivalent digital cinema camera is the SI2k starting around $25k. This is not a 1080p video camera, though it can certainly serve quite well as one.

Scarlet will shoot native 3k digital cinema 1.89:1 widescreen format and fully resolve beyond 2k digital cinema projection resolution. Put decent glass on it and it should compete well with the Sony FW900 and FW800 Cine Alta cameras that start at $40k+.

I look at it as an S16mm film camera replacement not a video camera. People have too much of a low end prosumer video mindset about the little Scarlet.
Click to expand...

Just wait till the videos start coming out from RED, I think people will realize what they are getting for how much :)
 
chrislancaster said:
woah! i love red as well but a 2/3 inch Fixed camera is worth $7,000 why?

there are plenty of competitors at that price doing just as much more than the 2/3 fixed will be able to do (at 7 k)

at what point do you just decide to buy a used red one... the scarlet shoots 1080 p (3k down rezed)

i will buy one I am on the fence of which i can justify thinking very hard about epic but a red one w/ mysterium x will really be a great camera even for many years to come
Click to expand...

I think David explained the situation perfectly. I was very generously considering the EX-1 as roughly in the ballpark but, of course, it falls short in many ways. (Though it is cheaper than the $7K I cited.) One is that the sensor is 1/2" and another is that it is stuck with a 35Mbps data rate (XDCAM EX) and can't shoot RAW. It also only shoots 1080p to Scarlet's 3K. REDCode is a huge reason that I think nothing can touch Scarlet at this point. The truth is, I would probably stretch and pay close to $10K for the Scarlet fixed package if that's what it came out to be. Of course, I'd compare pricing between the fixed and the interchangeable if the prices bumped that much.

You say there are plenty of competitors at $7K? Name one, I'd like to know about it. And as for choosing between Epic and Scarlet? At a price differential approaching $30K +, I couldn't personally justify it. It doesn't seem too realistic to think there are folks out there deciding between one or the other. A little bit like a Cessna Citation vs. a 747. The are hardly interchangeable.
 
chrislancaster said:
maybe its the small package ...

why not compare this to a 1080p video camera ?(fixed 2/3 scarlet)

i understand higher frame rates but 2k is just over 1080 as i understand it

im not making a case against scarlet and this is not appropriate to get defensive its just dialogue


And the Red One is 17500 so... :devil:
Click to expand...

1080p cams resolve around 750-800 lines vertical at best. Cropped for 2k widescreen that drops to around 650 lines.
At full 3k resolution with the highest quality deBayer Scarlet will resolve around 1200 lines vertical and maintain better than 800 lines when downconverted to 1080p or 2k. For 2k or 1080p finish there will be very little if any visible difference between R1 at 4k and Scarlet at 3k as the limiting value will be the Nyquist limit of 1080p, around 850 lines vertical. This also happens to be pretty close to the practical resolution limits of most 35mm film projection in theaters too. The 2k Cineon digital standard was developed by Kodak as a practical equivalent to 35mm projection from scanned film originals. Digital cameras are just now catching up.
 
chrislancaster said:
heres the elitist country club attitude from the fan boys

this shit is pathetic...
Click to expand...

1080p as an acquisition format is just not very interesting anymore. Oversampling is the proven path to better quality for any digital format.
HD is the new SD.:sifone:
 
chrislancaster said:
heres the elitist country club attitude from the fan boys
Click to expand...

How is this elitist? Objectively, the specs on the Scarlet is better than any other camera that is on the market (or anything announced that's being released in the next year). That's just the truth.

chrislancaster said:
and the whole "why ask questions when RED does so much for us" that is F'ing! stupid
Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong about asking questions - in fact, constructive feedback from REDUser and DVXUser before it was one of the things that makes RED as good as they are. But complaining about a few price rises isn't really that productive as the whole DSMC system has evolved to something far better than the original idea, and relative to the other options on the market currently and in the near future, it's still very inexpensive...
 
I think that we've been very constructive in relating our feelings why the Scarlet is an excellent value and really has no equal right now in that value range. This is FAR from elitist. I even listed some (but not all) the reasons I think this way.
 
This camera system promises to be one of the best values in the industry. Red can never truly claim obsolete is obsolete, but they can delay its onset. That delay is a value all will benefit from. Entry level to Epic level, if Red builds value the outcome will be worth the money we spend. Jannard & company have learned from listening and are delivering a product at several price points. Scarlet is coming in several shades [it is a good thing] Pick your shade and create with it, understanding that if any system supports your growth Red does (or probably will). You have essentially been architects and designers of this system. When it's ready - and lets hope it will be soon - lets prove that we are worthy of all of the hard work that went into designing this fascinating tool for creative output.
Jai Bradford
Frim Fram Media
 
chrislancaster said:
heres the elitist country club attitude from the fan boys


really guys i came here for an intelligent discussion not an argument. If you would like to make a point thats great but you do RED a great disservice when you act like defensive guard dogs snarling at anyone who has an honest question

and the whole "why ask questions when RED does so much for us" that is F'ing! stupid
Click to expand...

?? Not sure I get what it was that insulted you. No one is being "elitist." And no one is defending RED other than to say the pricing on this camera is currently quite competitive in the marketplace. If you don't agree, that's fine. The point is simply that, even if they are forced to raise those prices, it will still be competitive. Not sure how that is "elitist." Just an opinion.

And you did say you thought there were competitive cameras in the $7K range. I would genuinely be interested in what they are as I would like to know my options if RED raises Scarlet prices.
 
Stephen Gentle said:
How is this elitist? Objectively, the specs on the Scarlet is better than any other camera that is on the market (or anything announced that's being released in the next year). That's just the truth.



There's nothing wrong about asking questions - in fact, constructive feedback from REDUser and DVXUser before it was one of the things that makes RED as good as they are. But complaining about a few price rises isn't really that productive as the whole DSMC system has evolved to something far better than the original idea, and relative to the other options on the market currently and in the near future, it's still very inexpensive...
Click to expand...

i was quoting someone else ..

and i never complained about price increase ..

when i asked why someone would pay 7000 for the fixed i was scolded ...

now i have to defend myself

i will excuse myself from this conversation

thanks
 
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