Scarlet still #1

[Michael Smith]

Well, based on your criteria, the AF100 doesn't exist either. Perhaps the scarlet and the AF100 will both be here in December, perhaps neither. One thing we can be pretty confident about is that they are both in development as we speak. :001_cool:

Terry I just gotta ask.. do you WORK for Red? I've been reading these forums today and man you take the company line hard.

Personally I have not researched the AF100 so I don't know what panasonic has said about it. I can say that it looks like a feaking ugly box. Like a camera that you'd find in the 80's. But your statement that it doesn't exist either and is only in development doesn't sound right to me. Different companies do things differently and have different track records. Panasonic isn't known to miss release dates. If they say it's out in Japan in December I'd bank on it... I doubt they have a catch-all line at the end of their press release saying "unless we don't and then we won't."

I think what people are starting to get tired of (me included) is just that it's not a normal way to do business. Most professional companies don't make positive statements about release dates and then cover themselves with a line at the bottom of the president's forum signature that says "hey we can decide at any time to change our minds and if you have a bad attitude about it we just won't sell to you". The reason so many people are starting to speak up about feeling like they were promised a release date is that they were promised a release date. Having "crossies" held behind the back or disclaimer-ing that "we might be late" or even "we will be late" is sort of lame.

I've said before.. I hope that it's all true. I hope the camera comes out and that it's all t's and a's. But eventually people get sort of tired of being jerked around.. even if the jerker said.. hold on i'm going to jerk you around a bit.. it's still gets old.

Red took on an insurmountable task - and probably didn't realize how insurmountable it would be.. clearly. And I suspect that these days they're NOT providing much in the form of updates because they are maturing and realizing that it might hurt more than it helps.

OH - And I'm not 'threatening' to buy another camera. It just so happens that I start thinking.. "hey what's up with red" right around the time that I'm looking online for a good place to pre-order a 60D. Surely red wants to know that I'd be buying their camera instead right now if it were out. Don't you think they want to know that? So they know what revenue they're missing out on? I know in my business, when I'm late on a delivery (which I am today), that it's motivational to know that it's costing me money.

 

[David Rasberry]

af100 is an 8 bit AVCHD camera. At IBC Panasonic had a working prototype they said was at the "70%" stage. Not showing any footage yet.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Terry I just gotta ask.. do you WORK for Red? I've been reading these forums today and man you take the company line hard.

No, I don't work for RED. I just respect the success of a guy like Jim Jannard and I don't think Oakley or RED ONE was a fluke. I like success.

Personally I have not researched the AF100 so I don't know what panasonic has said about it. I can say that it looks like a feaking ugly box. Like a camera that you'd find in the 80's. But your statement that it doesn't exist either and is only in development doesn't sound right to me. Different companies do things differently and have different track records. Panasonic isn't known to miss release dates. If they say it's out in Japan in December I'd bank on it... I doubt they have a catch-all line at the end of their press release saying "unless we don't and then we won't."

It doesn't YET exist any more than the Scarlet 2/3 exists. We have seen prototypes of both but nothing more. If Panasonic delivers in December and Scarlet is still not here, there is a difference. For all we know, Scarlet may come before the AF100. We wait...

I think what people are starting to get tired of (me included) is just that it's not a normal way to do business. Most professional companies don't make positive statements about release dates and then cover themselves with a line at the bottom of the president's forum signature that says "hey we can decide at any time to change our minds and if you have a bad attitude about it we just won't sell to you". The reason so many people are starting to speak up about feeling like they were promised a release date is that they were promised a release date. Having "crossies" held behind the back or disclaimer-ing that "we might be late" or even "we will be late" is sort of lame.

I'd disagree that RED's business model is "lame" and I think there are a lot of people that agree with me. There are also a lot of people that agree with you. And I don't think you have EVER been promised a release date.

I've said before.. I hope that it's all true. I hope the camera comes out and that it's all t's and a's. But eventually people get sort of tired of being jerked around.. even if the jerker said.. hold on i'm going to jerk you around a bit.. it's still gets old.

Not sure why you feel "jerked around" - you have never been lied to - just given more information than most companies would give. Is it more information than you want to handle?

Red took on an insurmountable task - and probably didn't realize how insurmountable it would be.. clearly. And I suspect that these days they're NOT providing much in the form of updates because they are maturing and realizing that it might hurt more than it helps.

OH - And I'm not 'threatening' to buy another camera. It just so happens that I start thinking.. "hey what's up with red" right around the time that I'm looking online for a good place to pre-order a 60D. Surely red wants to know that I'd be buying their camera instead right now if it were out. Don't you think they want to know that? So they know what revenue they're missing out on? I know in my business, when I'm late on a delivery (which I am today), that it's motivational to know that it's costing me money.

I may buy a 60D myself - looks like a great still camera and will be a lot of fun for video until Scarlet arrives. But it is no substitute for Scarlet so I'll order my Scarlet as soon as they are taking orders.

No, I don't think Jim stays awake at night worrying about lost revenue. When Scarlet comes it will still have no equal for what it is/does and that is what will sell A LOT of cameras - even if you are not a buyer. There is no lost revenue and I think Jim understands that. That said, I am also sure he wants to deliver that camera even more than you want to buy it.

 

[Noel Evans]

What confuses me a bit when reading threads like this are the EITHER OR statements.

I personally think once Scarlet is released - whenever that is, and I for one am not holding my breathe, it will be what has been promised. And we all have a fairly good idea of what that is, something pretty unique at the price point.

But are people seriously holding out for a Scarlet? How do you make money in the mean time? And if you dont do this for a living - whats the issue in waiting?

Ill be jumping all over the AF100 and kicking the canon 5d to the curb. AF100 plus 4:2:2 via the new ki pro mini... great set up for a diversity of jobs that arent in the higher end budget range with a smooth prores 4:2:2 fast turnaround workflow.... hell yeah from me. Ill probably get two.

I also have a HPX500 and rent many other forms of camera for my day job, but Im still excited to see Scarlet when its released. And I will evaluate it at that point, but I have confidence it will do what I want. In the mean time I continue with what I have and what I rent.

One point of note though - the AF100 WILL be released December.

So to return to my original point - if I buy an AF100 (which I will) does it mean I wont get Scarlet? No way.

 

[David Rasberry]

The sub $10k Indie/pro production market is one that Panasonic has typically served well. The AF100 will be a superb addition for general purpose HD video production. It will be a DSLR killer for this market, even more so than Scarlet.

On the other hand I consider Scarlet more of a true film camera replacement. For digital cinema production and for markets like high end digital signage and fine art motography ( a new art form) Scarlet will be more of an HD video killer.

 

[Ryan Paige]

But are people seriously holding out for a Scarlet? How do you make money in the mean time? And if you dont do this for a living - whats the issue in waiting?

People, in general, aren't very patient.

And I think there are more than a few no/low budget filmmakers who don't make a living with their camera and who have self-generated projects that they can schedule themselves. Many of those people want the best they can get their hands on, but they also can't afford to buy multiple cameras in a relatively short period of time.

So, buying something now means not being able to afford Scarlet when it does come out. And, if Scarlet really is what we all expect it to be, that can quickly lead to buyer's remorse and further frustration (and, too, it is difficult to pull the trigger on something now because Scarlet has perpetually been "right around the corner". I recall when the 7D was first announced, there were some who said that it would be stupid to buy a 7D instead of waiting for Scarlet because someone at Red had said that we'd "see" Scarlet by the end of that year. That was over a year ago).

So, they wait and get frustrated in a different way.

Getting upset about the wait is just human nature, and posting about it is just expressing our natural impatience and frustration.

It's not Red's "fault" or the wannabe buyers "fault", it's just something that happens. In a way, it's a testament to Red's success and envelope-pushing that people do get so worked up about having to wait. If nobody thought Scarlet was going to be an incredible camera and incredible value, there wouldn't be so many people hating the wait.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

On the other hand, if RED was more like Canon and hadn't said anything about the Scarlet until they could promise a release date, all these people would've gone out and bought DSLR's and then had buyer's remorse. I bet all the people who bought a T2i this summer are flipping out at Canon for not announcing the 60D earlier, since now that they've released the 60D at that price they'll probably never add manual audio to the T2i's firmware.

The slow pace of innovation is frustrating (even when its happening blazingly fast). We just have to deal with it. In the long run, having a less-than-ideal camera for a few years or so isn't that big of a deal.

Personally, I love the fact that RED lets us know about their long term plans, their pitfalls, etc. I don't mind knowing where my sausages come from. For me, more information is always a good thing.

 

[Jim Retar]

I bet all the people who bought a T2i this summer are flipping out at Canon for not announcing the 60D earlier, since now that they've released the 60D at that price they'll probably never add manual audio to the T2i's firmware.

Anyone suffering buyer's remorse from a $750 s35, interchangeable lens, HD camera with variable frame rates must be very new to the game!

I do see your point, but it is amazing how fast technology is moving along for people to even consider being cheated. The 550D is the ultimate micro budget indie cam.

 

[Thomas Church]

All I can say is that the 60D is going to be my official "Waiting for Scarlet" camera.

Apparently it's just as good as the 7D for video, is 300 bucks cheaper and has a fold out LCD.

Once Scarlet is out I'm gonna use it for stills and videos when travelling.

 

[Jim Retar]

I'm gonna take a look at the GH2 before getting my (3rd) interim camera.

The 40fps burst mode interests me.... there is no real info yet.... but I can imagine a 6mpx (3k) mode that might be able to buffer 10 seconds worth of stills.

My $500 Casio EX-F1 can burst nearly 3 seconds of 1-60p/3K jpegs and the resulting 1080p/2k is stunning in sharpness and grading potential.

If the GH2 can burst 3-4 times longer than the Casio.... then we could be onto something cool. Some slightly over cranked shots that have no dialogue... could look beautiful.

Sounds like the GH2 will have 1080/60p too.... bonus!

 

[Graeme Hay]

Yeah I'm also watching the GH2 now, could be something worth getting, if not I may fall back on the Casio FH100 (for highspeed) and my D90.

 

[Ash Worth]

The sub $10k Indie/pro production market is one that Panasonic has typically served well. The AF100 will be a superb addition for general purpose HD video production. It will be a DSLR killer for this market, even more so than Scarlet.

On the other hand I consider Scarlet more of a true film camera replacement. For digital cinema production and for markets like high end digital signage and fine art motography ( a new art form) Scarlet will be more of an HD video killer.

The 'DSLR killer' term is an interesting one. The first generation DSLR's have sold enough units for the manufacturers not to be too worried about anything coming along and offing them.

When Scarlet comes out the assumption here is that it would be competing with the 2nd generation DSLR and very few of us know what the specs of those will be.

But the reality is that Scarlet will be too expensive for the bulk of the DSLR crowd, it has already been discussed here that a Scarlet set up will run at least 15k to use in the field. Different market. I agree with David on this one.

It would be a mistake for RED to think they will sell that many units to this crowd. There is way too much hype here. Potential buyers are the more serious folks who were buying EX3, HVX200 etc and even for them that is a stretch.

The DSLR revolution was only possible because the cameras were cheap, companies realized they could make a buck manufacturing budget accessories and involved a few shills to sell them. Go to any of the DSLR sites and it's all about selling you the next piece of gear that you don't really need.

The DSLR revolution was rarely about making films.

Hopefully with the cost of the Scarlet that will be the focus. Just reading some of the posts here it seems the philosophy of RED is to release a good product and not quickly release something that will make them a quick buck. I hope they can continue to do this.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The 'DSLR killer' term is an interesting one. The first generation DSLR's have sold enough units for the manufacturers not to be too worried about anything coming along and offing them.

When Scarlet comes out the assumption here is that it would be competing with the 2nd generation DSLR and very few of us know what the specs of those will be.

But the reality is that Scarlet will be too expensive for the bulk of the DSLR crowd, it has already been discussed here that a Scarlet set up will run at least 15k to use in the field. Different market. I agree with David on this one.

It would be a mistake for RED to think they will sell that many units to this crowd. There is way too much hype here. Potential buyers are the more serious folks who were buying EX3, HVX200 etc and even for them that is a stretch.

The DSLR revolution was only possible because the cameras were cheap, companies realized they could make a buck manufacturing budget accessories and involved a few shills to sell them. Go to any of the DSLR sites and it's all about selling you the next piece of gear that you don't really need.

The DSLR revolution was rarely about making films.

Hopefully with the cost of the Scarlet that will be the focus. Just reading some of the posts here it seems the philosophy of RED is to release a good product and not quickly release something that will make them a quick buck. I hope they can continue to do this.

Welcome to the forum. Lots of good thoughts here but I would note that the term "Scarlet" seems a lot like the elephant with the blind men. That is, referred to in the short hand, Scarlet means different things to different people. I would argue that the 2/3" Fixed Scarlet will likely NOT cost $15K. That maybe be a number that could be associated with a Scarlet 2/3" interchangeable, S35 or FF35, given the cost of lenses but is pretty high for the Fixed, given that the current pricing for a basic kit is $4750. Personally, I expect that base pricing to go a little higher and, by the time you get what you really want it could be a few thousand beyond that. My own plan is to go for the fixed and build a system around that first, then add an S35 when it become available.

Changing the assumption about cost also, then, changes the discussion about where it will fit into the "second generation" vDSLR landscape, Personally, I think the vDSLR sensors are going to have to get a lot more capable - i.e. no line skipping or h.264 in order to process the video - if they are going to take their place in the "serious video camera" world and deliver a robust and flexible signal to work with. Until that happens, Scarlet's RAW will win, hands down, for most serious video work.

 

[Ash Worth]

Changing the assumption about cost also, then, changes the discussion about where it will fit into the "second generation" vDSLR landscape, Personally, I think the vDSLR sensors are going to have to get a lot more capable - i.e. no line skipping or h.264 in order to process the video - if they are going to take their place in the "serious video camera" world and deliver a robust and flexible signal to work with. Until that happens, Scarlet's RAW will win, hands down, for most serious video work.

Agreed. And thanks for the welcome.

I think 2nd generation is a way off with the DSLR, and judging by the preview of the 4k Canon, somewhat misdirected. These cameras will be broadcast limited as long as the short comings of h.264 aren't addressed. Deliver me usable 1080p before we even start the res conversation.

But with considerably more web content being produced perhaps that won't be as important, it certainly isn't with the DSLR crowd, nothing wrong with that. Jim's position is record the best format and down res, yes? I prefer that.

Here's a question. Are we sure about a fixed Scarlet? Was this to keep cost down? Isn't it more in line with RED's philosophy to have components separate. One thing the DSLR movement stressed is that now you can invest in decent glass and looking at the future offerings of Sony and Panasonic both are following this mantra.

What am I missing? Apologies if this has been discussed before.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

the components are separate on the fixed scarlet the only thing that isn't is the lens. But considering it has been said that the lens alone (though it could not work alone as many of it's components are inside the fixed scarlet body) would cost more than the whole fixed package itself.

If you also consider some of the other companies releasing interchangeable cameras to low markets with little to no options for cinema quality zooms this is a very good option, plus you get a number of modules that will work on other new red cameras so all you need is to buy is a new brain and lenses (perhaps a side handle ssd module and whatever else your production style demands).

Obviously the base package won't have everything people will want to start out with but it is a very good deal, and as others said you can consider it buying a zoom lens with a free camera attached.

have a good one.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

Here's a question. Are we sure about a fixed Scarlet? Was this to keep cost down? Isn't it more in line with RED's philosophy to have components separate. One thing the DSLR movement stressed is that now you can invest in decent glass and looking at the future offerings of Sony and Panasonic both are following this mantra.

What am I missing? Apologies if this has been discussed before.

I would say we are more sure of a fixed Scarlet than anything else Scarlet related. There have been non-functional models around for quite some time and recently, a picture of a prototype and a tiny bit of sample footage. Since early on, the Scarlet fixed has been discussed as the first Scarlet to be released and absolutely nothing would suggest that has been changed.

From all accounts, the lens on it is pretty remarkable for the price and I doubt there will be a Scarlet package with more overall value than the one being shown by RED on their web site at $4750 for a "shootable" package. "Shootable" being a bit of a loose description as it will need the addition of at least some media to shoot on.