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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet still #1

Terry VerHaar said:
I didn't interpret Chris Gold's post as saying Scarlet was 4:2:0 - and certainly it is not. Technically, since it is shooting RAW, I don't think it actually has a "color space" until you process it into some other form. And, of course, since all the sensor data is there, that color space can easily be 4:4:4, such as in ProRes444, etc. But he does suggest that you can get better color space with the 3-CCD sensor, which I believe is NOT true, per my comment above, i.e. all the sensor data is available and 4:4:4 is quite readily available.
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You are correct, and that was the answer I got, deleted the post. Though I stand by the statement that I don't think these are the af100's strengths compared to the scarlet.

Thanks for the correction Terry sometimes I skim through post a little fast, I hate posting on a misinterpretation.
 
Carl Weston said:
As far as I know the scarlet 2/3 or s35 doesn't actually exist. does it?...The AF100 will be out in December..I hope the scarlet exist and is shipping by that time.
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Well, based on your criteria, the AF100 doesn't exist either. Perhaps the scarlet and the AF100 will both be here in December, perhaps neither. One thing we can be pretty confident about is that they are both in development as we speak. :001_cool:
 
I'm not sure but I also think the scarlet was in prototype form before the af100 though that is an opinion and in no way based in reality as the only people who know that are Red and Panasonic. Though I assume the Panasonic prototype is much closer to it's final version than the scarlet fixed.
 
Just because something is RAW doesn't mean it equates to 4:4:4 color space. Since the Scarlet (and all other 1 chip cameras, save sigma's foveons) can only interpret one color per pixel, the bayer pattern is layed out in a GRGB pattern which means that ok the 3K pixels, 1/2 are green, 1/4 are red, and 1/4 are blue. On a 3 chip camera every color has a dedicated full resolution chip. On a 3k Chip there are over twice as many total pixels as one HD chip (5 million compared to 2 million), but of those 5 million 2.5 million will be green, 1.25 million will be red, and 1.25 million will be blue. On an Full raster HD there will be 2 million green, 2 million red, and 2 million blue. So there is more color information in blue and red. Bayers also only resolve between 70-80% of their resolution after debayering, so it wont be 3K sharp, more like 2k-2.4K, which is sharper then 1920x1080P by between 100-500 lines. All around its better, but not immesnly better, which... is what I was saying.

Buuuut, the EX1 samples its color advtantage down with its crappy 8 bit 4:2:0 codec, one needs something like a ki pro to get the better color info out of it.
 
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Chris Gold said:
Just because something is RAW doesn't mean it equates to 4:4:4 color space. Since the Scarlet (and all other 1 chip cameras, save sigma's foveons) can only interpret one color per pixel, the bayer pattern is layed out in a GRGB pattern which means that ok the 3K pixels, 1/2 are green, 1/4 are red, and 1/4 are blue. On a 3 chip camera every color has a dedicated full resolution chip. On a 3k Chip there are over twice as many total pixels as one HD chip (5 million compared to 2 million), but of those 5 million 2.5 million will be green, 1.25 million will be red, and 1.25 million will be blue. On an Full raster HD there will be 2 million green, 2 million red, and 2 million blue. So there is more color information in blue and red. But the green is also used for luma resolution so there is more luma resolution in the 3k bayer, but not immensly more.

Buuuut, the EX1 samples its color advtantage down with its crappy 8 bit 4:2:0 codec, one needs something like a ki pro to get the better color info out of it.
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I don't know much about these things, but I assume no matter what the colour space it is better than the af100, now I could be wrong but I'm holding out on my comparisons until these camera's are in the hands of unbiased testers.
 
Stephen Matthews said:
I don't know much about these things, but I assume no matter what the colour space it is better than the af100, now I could be wrong but I'm holding out on my comparisons until these camera's are in the hands of unbiased testers.
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Yea the AF100 is also a 1 chip bayer, and the in camera debayer won't be able to match Red's Cine-X, so thats a safe bet.
 
Chris Gold said:
Just because something is RAW doesn't mean it equates to 4:4:4 color space. Since the Scarlet (and all other 1 chip cameras, save sigma's foveons) can only interpret one color per pixel, the bayer pattern is layed out in a GRGB pattern which means that ok the 3K pixels, 1/2 are green, 1/4 are red, and 1/4 are blue. On a 3 chip camera every color has a dedicated full resolution chip. On a 3k Chip there are over twice as many total pixels as one HD chip (5 million compared to 2 million), but of those 5 million 2.5 million will be green, 1.25 million will be red, and 1.25 million will be blue. On an Full raster HD there will be 2 million green, 2 million red, and 2 million blue. So there is more color information in blue and red. Bayers also only resolve between 70-80% of their resolution after debayering, so it wont be 3K sharp, more like 2k-2.4K, which is sharper then 1920x1080P by between 100-500 lines. All around its better, but not immesnly better, which... is what I was saying.

Buuuut, the EX1 samples its color advtantage down with its crappy 8 bit 4:2:0 codec, one needs something like a ki pro to get the better color info out of it.
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I'll leave the rest for Mr. Nattress (although I think he long ago tired of this discussion) but one thing that I know to be true - the RAW file does allow for a 4:4:4 color space. So to suggest there is, on practical basis, somehow less color information available, I believe, is not accurate. I know there has been substantial discussion on this forum about RED's chosen path and nothing has led me to believe that there is persuasive evidence that a 3-CCD camera can provide better results. RED seems pretty confident in the quality of their images (with good reason) and I think their technology speaks for itself.

EDIT: OK - I went back and found a short post by Graeme: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43519&highlight=Bayer,&page=2

Note: I also was incorrect in using the term "color space" as what we are really talking about is "chroma sampling."
 
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I wasn't saying that I don't think RED took the right approach. I prefer a larger single chip to 3 smaller ones. I prefer raw debayer to in camera. I was just defending myself earlier when I said the scarlet wasn't as ahead of the competition as it was when it was announced 2 years ago, by explaining some potential advantages that competing cameras have. I was not even talking about the huge advantages that the scarlet has, I am a fan of the scarlet and RED, but that also doesn't mean nobody else makes decent cameras also.

Also, I wasn't refering to the sampling of the scarlet. Perhaps I should have said color Information, there is slightly more red and blue color information in a 3 chip 1920*1080 then a 3k gbgr bayer. But a lot of cameras throw that information away when they sample it.

Again, someone was saying the scarlet was twice as good at everything as any other camera in it's class and I was simply trying to be a little more realistic. Red told everyone what they were doing over 2 years ago and still nobody has caught up
 
Chris Gold said:
Also, I wasn't refering to the sampling of the scarlet. Perhaps I should have said color Information, there is slightly more red and blue color information in a 3 chip 1920*1080 then a 3k gbgr bayer. But a lot of cameras throw that information away when they sample it.
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It's not a free lunch though...3 chip cameras also introduce chroma abberations which kinda offsets the theoretical resolution advantage. I think you'll find Scarlet fairing as well if not better than 1080p 3 chip cameras, save for perhaps the most expensive with the most expensive lenses.
 
Thomas Church said:
................
Someone asked him "Is there any chance that Scarlet will come out this year?" and he said "Yes".

Both statements carry different weights to them.
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Can you please explain what is that difference?
 
In one option he would've said "The camera will come out this year".

In the other he said "The camera might come out this year".

One is sort of a promise, the other a conjecture.
 
Bayer pattern sensor is the closest mimic of the human eye at this point, its color sampling ability is equivalent to human vision which also has about a 2:1 ratio of green to red and blue. Bayer raw has no defined color space, just as the sensor output of a 3-chip camera has no defined color space. That is a product of processing and encoding.
For high end finishing, the normal output file of a Red is full 16 bit 4:4:4 RGB or YUV in several formats, though you can dial it down to whatever color space you wish.
 
Thomas Church said:
In one option he would've said "The camera will come out this year".

In the other he said "The camera might come out this year".

One is sort of a promise, the other a conjecture.
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I think Red is pushing as hard as it possibly can to get Epic and at least the Scarlet fixed out this year. They may make it yet.
 
Panasonic has confirmed that the AF100 outputs 8bit color out of the SDI. No possibility of 10bit at this time. Might as well go with a JVC, hehehe.
 
I have to agree with some of the sentiments expressed here. And, for once, we get to discuss multiple cameras which are not out in the field, yet, so there is no reason to knock the fact that Scarlet is still in development. They all are.

As someone who has done most of their shooting on a DSLR (yep, go ahead and blacklist me!), I am definitely ready for something that provides significant jump in quality. And that's really what I'm after. The announcement of the AF-100 made me pretty excited, and for a while I was considering purchasing one as a hold-over until the S35 Scarlets make their way out to the masses.

But then my fianceé (who is also my editor and gracefully puts up with my constant blabbering) asked a couple of questions:

Does it do RAW like RED? I thought that was something you really wanted.

Will your lenses work with it? Even the automatic ones? I thought you were pretty excited about that focus video.

Will it record 5K? You seemed to like the idea of future-proofing and the ability to have a really super clean 1080p image.

Weren't you excited about SSD? What does it record to?

And you haven't stopped talking about the HDR stuff that might dribble down from Epic. What's the Dynamic Range?

Those questions from her left no questions for me. Ceteris Paribus, I want a RED.
 
David Rasberry said:
Bayer pattern sensor is the closest mimic of the human eye at this point, its color sampling ability is equivalent to human vision which also has about a 2:1 ratio of green to red and blue. Bayer raw has no defined color space, just as the sensor output of a 3-chip camera has no defined color space. That is a product of processing and encoding.
For high end finishing, the normal output file of a Red is full 16 bit 4:4:4 RGB or YUV in several formats, though you can dial it down to whatever color space you wish.
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But, objects that lack other colors will resolve at different resolutions in a bayer. To my knowledge a green dress doesn't look twice as sharp as a red dress to the human eye, where it could in a bayer. Most of the time this isn't a problem because it is rare that things lack at least a little bit of another color, but in certain situations (I think rich reds are the most common) a bayer will resolve significantly lower resolution then it normaly does, which equates to a slightly lower resolution then a 3 chip 1080P camera could resolve (in the 2/3" Scarlets case, I believe the RED still resolves more being that its a 4K bayer) because they have an idential amount of information from each color.

I think the fixed lens scarlet is actually slightly cheaper then the cheapest full HD 3 chip camera though, so really that goes to show you how great of a product the Scarlet is going to be.
 
In the bayer pattern sensor system, green is mostly luma, so basically an object has to have no green in it what-so-ever for the resolution to drop to that of the red / blue photosites. In theory, this could happen. In practical reality, it's not an issue, especially with a good demosaic.

Graeme
 
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