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Scarlet SSD and CF

Jim Retar

Jim Retar

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Is it possible to get some clarification from RED staff on Scarlet 2/3" media?

Will current CF cards handle 24-120fps?
What is the highest redcode (@ 24fps) supported by current CF cards at 3k?
Are there plans for future CF cards?
If HDRx is available for Scarlet, will CF cards be good enough (@ 24fps)?
Will the SSD module be $2500 for Scarlet too?

The basic SSD setup of around $4500 (below) will be too much for general 2/3" buyers and it would be nice to hear that CF will not be obsolete.... at least for 3K shooting.

SDD basic setup:

2x 64gb = $1900
1x Red Module = $2500*
1x Red SSD Module = $250
Total for minimal SSD config: $4650

(assuming SSD module is the same as Epic)
 
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Jesper Sichlau said:
On Red's website the SSD Module is/was $1500. Has that changed, and why?
Click to expand...

That was also referencing a rear SSD module. The EPIC SSD module Jarred talked about last night is a side module (like the side CF), with a monitor port, record button, and user buttons.
 
Been saying all along that a practical Scarlet 2/3" field package will be more like $10k than $3k, or even $5k. Still very competitive with any pro HD 2/3", or even the higher end 1/3" and 1/2" HD cameras. CF I am sure will still be an option, maybe C-fast instead of standard CF if it proves practical. That would be interesting.
SSD media cost is actually less per gig than suitable CF cards though.
 
David Rasberry said:
SSD media cost is actually less per gig than suitable CF cards though.
Click to expand...

It is the module, and to a lesser extent, the station that boosts the initial price out of reach for my particular business model. I would be over the moon with SSD if the module was in exchange for the CF slot (and maybe an extra $500).

I am fine using CF cards, but I do not want to buy a Scarlet and then find that RED discontinue CF card production and research.

I think we need all the cards on the table at this point. Tests must have been made regarding Scarlet, CF, 120 fps, RC etc.. If we need to plan for SSD to get the best out of Scarlet, we need to know asap.
 
If you want to record at the highest quality and highest frame rates, CF won't do it. SSD is a must.
At normal Redcode compression of around 10:1, CF should just make 120fps for 16:9 format recording at around 90MB per second. But that is still pushing the limits of CF pretty hard. Even Scarlet 3k will go well beyond the limits of current CF technology if one wants to shoot the highest frame rates at the lowest compression. The spec upgrade for Scarlet was to Redcode 100, which is referenced to 24fps at the lowest compression rate I think, and would max out at around 100 MB per second.
Maybe the CF module will also be C-fast compatible for future media? CF is not going to be a long term option for these cameras methinks.
 
Storage solutions are advancing at a very rapid pace. I figure the best idea might be to wait till the Scarlet release or at least a concrete announcement, then figure out which would be the best option. Certainly, CF are not as relevant today as they were in 2008. But I feel it will do just fine. If you are in the mood for REDCODE 100 and 120fps, get an SSD module by all means. But really, a CFast module is much more appropriate to the needs of Scarlet. We don't really need expensive SSDs designed for REDCODE 200+. The goal is 100 MB/s sequential writes, and this is something CFast can do.
 
Subhadip Sen said:
Storage solutions are advancing at a very rapid pace. I figure the best idea might be to wait till the Scarlet release or at least a concrete announcement, then figure out which would be the best option. Certainly, CF are not as relevant today as they were in 2008. But I feel it will do just fine. If you are in the mood for REDCODE 100 and 120fps, get an SSD module by all means. But really, a CFast module is much more appropriate to the needs of Scarlet. We don't really need expensive SSDs designed for REDCODE 200+. The goal is 100 MB/s sequential writes, and this is something CFast can do.
Click to expand...

With higher speeds you also need more capacity and CFast needs to get over the hump to both capacity and speed before it'll get traction in market. At the moment, it's a checken and egg situation with card manufacturers being very hesitant about scaling up cfast when the demand is negligible.

We've been hopeful about Cfast for a long time...
 
Thanks Deanan, can you shed any light on the limitations of CF with regard to 3K Scarlet?

I think there are quite a few fixed scarlet buyers that need to know if we will need another $4k to use the full features.... we are not expecting lossless 120fps, but maybe usable 120fps footage?
 
Jesper Sichlau said:
Wow, thank you. You might as well have given me a link to Google.
Click to expand...

Just trying to help. Some useful info in that thread, up to you if you can be bothered to read it....or not.
 
Deanan said:
With higher speeds you also need more capacity and CFast needs to get over the hump to both capacity and speed before it'll get traction in market. At the moment, it's a checken and egg situation with card manufacturers being very hesitant about scaling up cfast when the demand is negligible.

We've been hopeful about Cfast for a long time...
Click to expand...

Very valid points. The potential is certainly there, though. If cameras and devices start supporting CFast, hopefully we will automatically see the card manufacturers pushing CFast cards.

For Scarlet / 3K / 24fps, I hope CF would continue to be a worthy solution.
 
G Lap said:
Just trying to help. Some useful info in that thread, up to you if you can be bothered to read it....or not.
Click to expand...

That's also very kind of you, but I had already been going through that thread and yet I was still confused.
 
Jesper Sichlau said:
That's also very kind of you, but I had already been going through that thread and yet I was still confused.
Click to expand...

Just a misunderstanding then, I thought that you might not have seen it.
 
The SDXC card specs (UHS104) are at 104 MByte/s.
Thosiba´s new SDXC cards are already getting 95 MByte/s (read) and 80 MByte/s (write) - and this is flimsy consumer SD(XC) cards today.

I say in 6 months there will be more faster cards since almost any camera manufacturer is supporting SDXC - this will have also an impact on CF cards.

If we want to use Redcode 100, the card should do at least 130-150 to be on the safe site.
I see that coming, but SSD will have a better price/size ratio.

Frank
 
I wouldn't worry people. It's obvious SSD is aimed at a financial bracket on par with Epic.
RED knows there is an army of prosumer shooters biting at their heels with five or six grand to spend. Myself included.
I'm sure CF will stick around or another cheap solution is planned. Common sense really.
 
I don't think they are abandoning CF just yet. But it has obvious limitations on speed and capacity for Epic. They should do just fine for Scarlet for most apps. But the 64GB CF's may not make it to market and would probably be more expensive than an SSD if they did.
Just because consumer cards are rated for high speed writes doesn't mean they can sustain continuous writes to capacity at those speeds, or do so day in day out repeatedly without degrading. From magazine test reports I have been seeing most don't meet their advertised specs.
 
I wonder if they could release a bare bones SDD module without monitor board+port, user buttons and a record button (not sure about any one else, but I only need one record button!).

If they could drop a bare bones module for, say, $500 and in exchange for the CF module... then I would be looking at 2x128gb SSDs.

$2500 is just too much for me to spend on media accesories (+ $250 to read the SDD).

My bigger concern is CF cards being abandoned in a year or so.
 
David Rasberry said:
I don't think they are abandoning CF just yet. But it has obvious limitations on speed and capacity for Epic. They should do just fine for Scarlet for most apps. But the 64GB CF's may not make it to market and would probably be more expensive than an SSD if they did.
Just because consumer cards are rated for high speed writes doesn't mean they can sustain continuous writes to capacity at those speeds, or do so day in day out repeatedly without degrading. From magazine test reports I have been seeing most don't meet their advertised specs.
Click to expand...

To be fair, the advertised specs are normally "upto" or burst speeds. It is the minimum that seems more critical factor. So, the best way is to check out some reviews and find out how they actually perform. Let's consider the Sandisk Extreme Pro 64GB, for example. It is under $600 today, and can do 60 MB/s minimum, according to several reviews. Sure, way below the advertised 90 MB/s, but still impressive. The average speed is about 75 MB/s. Seems plenty good for REDCODE 56 or so, don't you think?

It all depends on how well REDCODE copes up with Scarlet 3K footage. There might even be a possibility REDCODE 18 or so providing excellent results - in which case the $200 64GB cards will be more than good enough for nearly an hour's footage. It's best to wait and see where we are when Scarlet is released.
 
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