Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet - some warnings around the workflow

Kris Anderson said:
Anybody who just switches without considering the consequences for being ill-prepared deserves any grief they get in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Hopefully everybody take there time and research the common workflows and choose the best one they can afford. Since reduser is such good place to get any information, there should not be much of problem. Its just laziness to not do research. Therefor I agree!
 
External recorder

External recorder

Someone knows if their is a small affordable device that captures trough HDMI or SDI and stores in a hard drive or solid state?

I found
Convergent Design - nanoFlash

Master Quality I-Frame Only 4:2:2 @ 220 Mbps or XDCAM 422 @ 160 Mbps, Recording to MXF or QuickTime format using 2 x CompactFlash cards
Up to 2.5 hours of recording time without swapping cards (@50Mbps using 2 x 32Gb CompactFlash cards).

It's not bad but it costs more then scarlet...:cool:
 
Ryan Fitzgerald said:
It sounds to me like Ryan Walters is trying to scare people away from making the change because his workflow is about to become much more accessible. Maybe not, but I've definitely worked with my fair share of Camera Ops who are worried about things like this. I think it's pretty ridiculous. I would encourage anyone to take on new technology who is interested. I mean you're probably going to need to learn it someday anyways.. why wait?

My point is that anyone can learn a new workflow and everyone should be encouraged to do so. It's in poor taste to discourage anyone from achieving higher image quality, especially when it's reasonably affordable.

-Ryan
Click to expand...

To be honest,
Ryan Walters, article had the exact opposite effect on me. I have not worked directly with the RED one, but have been following its development very closely from the beginning. However, I have not gotten my feet wet in terms of work flow until I am absolutely forced to do so. In other words I have been a total chiken/p*ssy. Reading Ryan Walters article, and all of its points read like, well yeh, yeh well sure, well ofcourse , well Duh, yah!. and so on. So after reading it I thought yeh, this is totally doable, AND very exciting, because I love anything requires skill, insight and finesse to master without being buried by clumsy tools (a bit like REAL photography). And yup people have to take their data management seriously (but anyone who has been using a computer since 1983 would have SOME understanding of this…).

There will always be clueless wallys from the “unwashed” public that will chew up many thousands of hours of “tech support”. I have always wondered if RED would set up a separate company just to handle the larger volume issues related to Scarlet as it just doesn’t seem to fit their current paradigm?

Bring it on, Ryan Walter’s article has cured my chicken instincts and I want to jump in!

Cheers,
Eric
 
Elio Roma said:
Yes I know it's the 2.5 half hours of recording I'm looking at, I really don't need Raw or heavy RGB, I need time and affordable storage....
Click to expand...

I wouldn't want to record 1080p 4:2:2 though... You're throwing away half your resolution and, and the flexibility in post that you get with REDCODE (which is good if you want to do anything more than small adjustments to the image in post)...

If you're so concerned with how long you can record, the RED DRIVE is only $900 and you'd get far higher quality footage. You'd be able to fit at least two hours on that (probably more though).
 
Stephen Gentle said:
I wouldn't want to record 1080p 4:2:2 though... You're throwing away half your resolution and, and the flexibility in post that you get with REDCODE (which is good if you want to do anything more than small adjustments to the image in post)...

If you're so concerned with how long you can record, the RED DRIVE is only $900 and you'd get far higher quality footage. You'd be able to fit at least two hours on that (probably more though).
Click to expand...

I don't know what you people are planning to shoot, but I never had problems with Hdcam or Dvcpro formats, usually I try to get the "look" while shooting unless something experimental is going on, and still, I saw some amazing shifts in post when they edited the footage.

The thing is that scarlet 2/3 it's not the right camera to shoot the sequel of BARAKA, most of people will use it for shorts, documentary and some independent features, that usually don't need huge post manipulation.

The option for a low bitrate rgb I think it's a real need to compete in this sector of the market. if I buy scarlet 2/3 it's because I can't buy an epic, s35 or Red one, so for the same reason I can't afford a difficult workflow or enormous amount of Gigabytes and a super computer with redrocket.

Everything has its own nature
 
Gerald Menclik said:
I believe the recording format will be switchable ...
Click to expand...

In addition to 3K RAW, the 2/3" Scarlet cameras will also record 1080p RGB 4:4:4. However, as has been pointed out in several other places, we do not yet know any specs for the RGB codec. Presumably it's also wavelet-based, and there were mentions of a "REDCODE RGB" codec way back before the RED One even shipped.

We have to consider that both a 1080p 10bit RGB image as well as a 3K 12bit RAW image are roughly the same size ~7.5MB per frame uncompressed. So I don't see any real advantage for storage space when shooting RGB. However, the RGB mode should be much faster for post as there is no longer the need to do a full debayer operation as that has already been performed in-camera. Of course, at the expense of converting to RGB and down-scaling to 1080p.

IMO there is a lot of unfounded paranoia amongst the crowd of potential Scarlet owners. People concerned about workflows and system specs.. I've cut 4K RED projects on a 3-year-old 15" macbook pro and it worked alright. Of course a nice Mac Pro is a lot better, but if I'm going to be out in the field shooting and piecing together an edit, my current 17" MBP handles like a champ. I used to cut 480p and 720p on desktop workstations with with slower performance compared to the performance I get with the current tools. And I used to think that was good.

As for Ryan's article, I admit I've only skimmed over it. But it does seem mostly like it could be applied to any tapeless workflow. Shooting RAW and newer formats without broad support (REDCODE) does impose a learning curve. Those not prepared for a tapeless workflow and handling data management requirements for the workflow are in for a rough ride.

On the bright side of this all, storage is relatively cheap these days. 1TB HDD's are under $80, 800GB LTO-4 tapes are under $35. And tapes get a lot cheaper if you shop around. I just bought a 40-pack of LTO-4 for under $22/tape after shipping. Sometimes ebay is great...

I can store about 5.5 hours of 4K 16:9 REDCODE 36 on a LTO-4 tape.

Anyway, now I've dove off into an obscure tangent here...
 
IMO there is a lot of unfounded paranoia amongst the crowd of potential Scarlet owners.
Click to expand...

The paranoia is with RED in general. Ask anyone who's not familiar with RED ONE what they think and it will always be that it's hard to work with and problematic. They're not taking it on a shoot unless they have some serious back up, just watch the last episode of Zacutos Film Fellas, real cinematographers talking about the problems of using RED.

Once RED have taken care of this reputation then the Scarlett becomes a good alternative because up until now they have only had to take care of a few thousand users. Do they have the support for a big Scarlett roll out dealing with folks who are not so technically savvy? That will be interesting.
 
I don't think people are afraid of Red and if they are, they should not be in this field. Anyone who fears change will fall behind. All systems take time to get used to. Red understands that the Scarlet will appeal to a different consumer than the One and they will provide tailor made education accordingly, just like they did with their first system.

A lot of cinematographers are so used to film that they are having a great deal of trouble adapting but that is a reflection on them, not the camera. Talented guys like David Mullens are not having a problem so really, it is just a bunch of old guys who will never understand digital or are stuck up and don't want to work with equipment in the sub $50,000 range. They are a dying breed.
 
I thought it was a pretty good article, a lot that is self-evident to someone who is using a RED, but that is not his audience.

I think he's right, though - there's a lot of people who will jump in with both feet to a SCARLET and then be shocked, SHOCKED, when they find that they will have to (or want to...) invest hundreds or thousands more in storage devices, hardware accelerators, new computers that can handle the workflow efficiently, etc., etc.

This isn't a newsflash to an owner or even to people paying close attention to the camera's development, but not everyone who is going to buy a SCARLET is going to fit into that category. After all the huffy puffy negativity towards the article, I thought he had said something actually insulting, instead of just trying to help people think about a few things that may not be self-evident.

Just watch, though, RED sells a few thousand SCARLETs and the noise will be all over the forums, "I didn't know that I needed (fill in the blank...)." "You mean this won't work with my G4 and Final Cut 5.1.4????"

oh, it will happen...
 
it is just a bunch of old guys who will never understand digital or are stuck up and don't want to work with equipment in the sub $50,000 range. They are a dying breed.
Click to expand...

Actually this wasn't the case. The concerns were from Opaloch who had just shot District 9, I think he is mid thirties. Andrew how many cinematographers do you actually know? You are like a lot of the folks, your experience in the business is limited to how much you have 'read' this forum... armchair experts. Get yourself a 7D and get some experience.
 
Opaloch said he was initially skeptical but learned to use the camera and was impressed with the results. There was a linked article somewhere on here that interviewed him and he said that he would certainly use Red again. Most of the criticism came from Primes who said that Red did not have a great deal of latitude. Red has tone tests with the new MX sensor that produce dynamic range almost equal to film so Primes observations were irrelevant considering that he was working with early Red equipment which did have it's problems.

Yes I do research, no that does not make me an armchair cinematographer. I actually know quite a few cinematographers, some of which were recently showing films at Sundance. I have a good amount of experience. Sure, I am not a cinematographer by trade but I would like to be. I work for a local TV station as a camera operator so yes I have worked with expensive gear. Just because your self taught, does not mean that your points are irrelevant. I am on this thread to learn and I hope that is why you are here as well.

A great deal of Red criticism has come from DP's who claim that they will never, ever shoot digital. Even the great Roger Deakins has said that he supports what Red is doing and that he would shoot with it if the opportunity was given to him. "I certainly agree that some new technology will supplant film and that digital technology offers an alternative right now for some directors and some projects. I would have no hesitation shooting digital for the right project" (This was from a Red specific forum.)

I would suggest that you do some reading on this forum since you are still convinced that footage must be uncompressed to be raw. And don't judge my experience until you know me. Until then, you are just assuming.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top