Scarlet sharpness workflow question

[Miles Heckendorn]

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding our new baby (Scarlet #00579) and my workflow.

After doing a few quick test shots, I loaded the files into Redcine-x. I noticed that my shots seemed to be a bit soft when viewed at 100% with full debayer.

I figured I missed my mark or maybe my lens was having issues. So I tried a few other shots with different lenses. But it was the same issue, just a bit too soft. I guess there wasn't the "pop" that I was looking for.

I'm new to the RED workflow (but not to production). So I was hoping someone could point out if I'm doing something wrong in this case. I'm sure it's not the camera.

Maybe it's my unfamiliarity with the raw workflow and the sharpness needs to be dialed back in during post?

You can have a look at a R3D file:
http://www.filemail.com/dl.aspx?id=NYGOOHJNWPGERAA

Password: scarlet

R3D still:
http://www.filemail.com/dl.aspx?id=PNZCNCUSKNNVYKK

Password: scarlet

The basic info:
Lens: Canon 28mm 1.8
F-stop 2.8
Iso: 800
4kHD
Compression 8:1
The camera was black shaded before shooting

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Miles

 

[Robert L. Mickles]

Looks about normal. Canon lenses aren't exactly going to give you the sharpest image possible, especially if it's not an L series lens. You can sharpen it a bit with sharpen and detail sliders in RCX and also grading it to be less flat will help with sharpness too. Also what codec and setting are you outputting from RCX?

 

[David Battistella]

RED does ZERO sharpening in camera and instead leave "sharpening to taste".

Do everything you normally would and add the preferred amount of sharpening on your last pass.

David

 

[Matt Ryan]

Here it is with some contrast, sharpening on 2, and clarity slid up just a bit:

The subject still looks a little soft. Looks like it might just be the lens or focus was a bit off... At this downrez size you cannot tell but if you view in its full size here you will notice.

 

[David Battistella]

Dude,

3K is always also going to be a bit softer..

David

 

[Matt Ryan]

Dude,

3K is always also going to be a bit softer..

David

He shot in 4K

 

[David Battistella]

Sorry,

I saw that the still was 3K.. not 4K

David

 

[Matt Ryan]

Sorry,

I saw that the still was 3K.. not 4K

David

ah, I gotcha. I just uplaoded the 4K jpeg to picasa which I guess capped the image size.

You can also click options > download full size to view the 4KHD jpeg

 

[Miles Heckendorn]

Thanks for the quick replies!

I'll give post sharpening a try.

Since my final output will be 1080 most of the time, I tried running the clip through Ppro to have a look.

This is just a mp4 with the contrasted boosted to .20 and the WB changed but it does seem to help. I'll try adding some sharpness in with AE a little later.

https://vimeo.com/36859598

Password: scarlet

Also what codec and setting are you outputting from RCX?

Most likely the post guys will want Prores or DNxHD, but I get asked for all sorts.

The subject still looks a little soft. Looks like it might just be the lens or focus was a bit off...

Damn.... I tried 3 different lenses. We don't have our PL mount yet so I'm only able to try canon glass right now.

You don't happen to have a similar R3D still with better sharpness do you? I just want to compare my shot to something similar.

 

[David Battistella]

Yep.

It is a tinge soft.

Use magnify and focus assist to make sure you are really on the right focus.
But a bit of post sharpening with the downrez ill help this out.

Not much to worry about here though.

David

 

[Matt Ryan]

Thanks for the quick replies!

I'll give post sharpening a try.

Since my final output will be 1080 most of the time, I tried running the clip through Ppro to have a look.

This is just a mp4 with the contrasted boosted to .20 and the WB changed but it does seem to help. I'll try adding some sharpness in with AE a little later.

https://vimeo.com/36859598

Password: scarlet



Most likely the post guys will want Prores or DNxHD, but I get asked for all sorts.



Damn.... I tried 3 different lenses. We don't have our PL mount yet so I'm only able to try canon glass right now.

You don't happen to have a similar R3D still with better sharpness do you? I just want to compare my shot to something similar.

I can get you some R3D stills later when I'm at my Mac Pro.

Here is some stuff I shot that has no post sharpening at all.
http://matthayslett.com/?portfolio=deceit
http://matthayslett.com/?portfolio=misdirection
These are smaller grabs so they will look a bit sharper. If you go to my homepage those are 4K Jpegs so you can see what they look like on your monitor (although they will scale to your monitor resolution). No sharpening on any of them.

 

[Miles Heckendorn]

Use magnify and focus assist to make sure you are really on the right focus.

Thanks for the tip! I did use the magnify but I wasn't really aware of the focus assist. I just tried it now and I'm not sure it's working correctly.

The square stays red most of the time, even though it looks to be in focus. Sometimes it will turn to yellow but it just flickers between red/yellow and when that happens it doesn't seem to be the correct focus to my eye. It even flickered green once but I couldn't get it to repeat. Does that seem normal?

 

[Miles Heckendorn]

If you go to my homepage those are 4K Jpegs so you can see what they look like on your monitor (although they will scale to your monitor resolution). No sharpening on any of them.

Thanks for the help Matt! Those Jpegs are much sharper, this is what I was hoping for.

Something must be off. Now I just need to figure out if it's me or the camera.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Thanks for the help Matt! Those Jpegs are much sharper, this is what I was hoping for.

Something must be off. Now I just need to figure out if it's me or the camera.

Do you have a way to check your back focus?

 

[D Fuller]

Also, it takes a bit of re-calibration of your eye to get used to the look of the non-artificially-sharpened image. Once you do, it's really hard to stand the sharpening that you see everywhere. At 4K, the sharpness and micro-contrast of the lens become really important. Lenses that are top-shelf really show their stuff, and those that are not... well, they do too.

David is right, focus is super-critical. But the wonderful thing about shooting RED is that you get so much to work with in post. It's not necessary to just accept "what the camera gives you," but you have to experiment and learn what you like.

 

[Miles Heckendorn]

Do you have a way to check your back focus?

Nothing at the office other than a siemens star. I'm not even sure how I would adjust the back focus on a Canon mount. Any ideas?

 

[Miles Heckendorn]

Also, it takes a bit of re-calibration of your eye to get used to the look of the non-artificially-sharpened image.

Good point. When I first saw the low contrast of the Redgamma, that threw me for a loop. I knew it was going to be flat but I wasn't a 100% ready for that flat.

It's a new world for me and I'm happy to be here, I just need to get my head around a few things.

 

[Matthew Scott]

Isn't this a problem with debayering in RCX? (software only) I've read that many a time now. If it were red rocket debayered it would be sharper?

 

[Matt Ryan]

Isn't this a problem with debayering in RCX? (software only) I've read that many a time now. If it were red rocket debayered it would be sharper?

maybe a very very very slight increase in sharpness (I use a Red Rocket) but a soft shot or slightly soft shot will still be soft even with a red rocket.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Good point. When I first saw the low contrast of the Redgamma, that threw me for a loop. I knew it was going to be flat but I wasn't a 100% ready for that flat.

It's a new world for me and I'm happy to be here, I just need to get my head around a few things.

You can also set up a custom look in Redcine-X pro with a more contrasty feel and import that into your scarlet for viewing. Just know that your still shooting RAW but at least you can view with more crushed blacks to help with focus.