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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet sharpness workflow question

maybe a very very very slight increase in sharpness (I use a Red Rocket) but a soft shot or slightly soft shot will still be soft even with a red rocket.

Wait what? RR debayers -differently- than software only? Really? My understanding is it only accelerates debayering...
 
You will find the Red Rocket renders sharper images. When I first compared my Scarlet to an old 10 megapixel DSLR , I actually thought the Scarlet was a big disappointment. Then I rendered the same frames in Red Rocket, and was relieved that it looked similar to the $250 Canon XTi images rendered raw with Adobe Camera Raw.

See this thread I posted sample images on:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...h-Red-Rocket-RCX-software-debayer-new-methods

Over sharpening the RCX output is a hack, and not going to get you the *real* detail back. Just like an over 'cored' High Def telecine transfer only looks sharper than a good film scan at first. Then you look closer, and you will see the real detail emerge.

Sharpening is good for very slight issues, but as soon as you start getting those tell tale 'ringing' edges you know it's BS.
If you are only concerned with making 1920x1080 then this isn't an issue. If you want real 4k, now you have to be careful.
The difference noted in my thread seem to be exasperated by higher ISO settings as well.
I am hoping RED with it's new RCX release will add options to the debayer that come close to or exceed the Red Rocket output.



I find it troubling that it's being implied that to pull the best quality from our footage we need to use $5k hardware. Any comparison to using Resolve for debayer?

Thx!
 
Ok now I'm really confused lol. Can anyone settle this decidedly?

Thx!
Yes. They render slightly different. And remember that if you are scaling down, that there is an algorithm applied which in software render is user selectable. The simple answer is, don't get overly concerned about this unless you have a need to be. Pixel peeping is fine unless it starts to get in the way of creativity. If you don't have a Red Rocket and don't plan on getting one, I would suggest focusing on what you do have and making that work for you. Make sure to fully understand the Redcine-X Pro interface and all of the options. If you are not getting expected results, make sure to go down the list of variables, starting with acquisition. Make sure there are no weak links in the chain. This includes making sure that flange distance is set correctly, lens are good samples focus is nailed 100%, etc. Then make sure everything downstream is set properly and you are treating the image's tonality correctly, etc. There are a lot of potential trap doors along the way. And if you get through all of this and it comes down to the software debayer is doing less than stellar things to your image, then consider another option. But I tend to think that's not what's holding anyone back. Unless there has been a problem that has developed in one of the RCX releases. If someone really needs to compare, I suppose you could send over a trimmed R3D and I could run it through both processes.
 
Yes. They render slightly different. And remember that if you are scaling down, that there is an algorithm applied which in software render is user selectable. The simple answer is, don't get overly concerned about this unless you have a need to be. Pixel peeping is fine unless it starts to get in the way of creativity. If you don't have a Red Rocket and don't plan on getting one, I would suggest focusing on what you do have and making that work for you. Make sure to fully understand the Redcine-X Pro interface and all of the options. If you are not getting expected results, make sure to go down the list of variables, starting with acquisition. Make sure there are no weak links in the chain. This includes making sure that flange distance is set correctly, lens are good samples focus is nailed 100%, etc. Then make sure everything downstream is set properly and you are treating the image's tonality correctly, etc. There are a lot of potential trap doors along the way. And if you get through all of this and it comes down to the software debayer is doing less than stellar things to your image, then consider another option. But I tend to think that's not what's holding anyone back. Unless there has been a problem that has developed in one of the RCX releases. If someone really needs to compare, I suppose you could send over a trimmed R3D and I could run it through both processes.

Here are 8 R3D's to choose from:


Disclaimer: Please use these R3D's for this test only.
 
Does anyone know if theres a way to adjust flange depth on the canon mount?

Does the hole at the top right of the camera adjust it on the canon mount like it does on the pl mount?
 
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Matt, I downloaded them. You can delete.

Technically, you are adjusting flange depth, not back focus (that's something done on a lens. Just so there's no confusion.
 
Matt, I downloaded them. You can delete.

Technically, you are adjusting flange depth, not back focus (that's something done on a lens. Just so there's no confusion.

sorry you are correct. Could this possibly be an issue here and why Miles images are consistently soft with his Canon glass?
 
I did try to use the focus confirm...

I think what Les meant is that you should manually rack focus very slowly back and forth over what you think is the correct focus point so that you can step through the frames in RCX and make sure you are grabbing the sharpest possible frame.

We are talking about extreme pixel peeping here so I would not trust any focus confirm feature to be reliable enough...
 
sorry you are correct. Could this possibly be an issue here and why Miles images are consistently soft with his Canon glass?
It's one of the variables that should be eliminated yes. Although not necessarily a direct indicator of the problem here. Before sending camera back to RED, I would suggest taking it to a rental house that has some good test lenses. They might also be able to do some comparisons with another camera as well. Might have to pay for this service depending on relationship with rental house, but would probably be worth it. If you can establish that everything checks out on the camera side, then you can start to look at the R3D processing part of it.
 
I think what Les meant is that you should manually rack focus very slowly back and forth over what you think is the correct focus point so that you can step through the frames in RCX and make sure you are grabbing the sharpest possible frame.

Hi Jonas, I did rack the focus to make sure that it was at it sharpest. But before I rolled. I can do another test and where I record the process.

sorry you are correct. Could this possibly be an issue here and why Miles images are consistently soft with his Canon glass?

This is a good question. I've had no luck finding any info on adjusting the Canon mount. Everything I've seen is regarding the PL mount.
 
Before sending camera back to RED, I would suggest taking it to a rental house that has some good test lenses. They might also be able to do some comparisons with another camera as well.

Yep, I want to exhaust all options before sending it back. I was just speaking to some of the others at work and we do know someone with another camera. I'm going to try to get together with him soon.

One thing to keep in mind is that I have tried other lenses, including a L (70-200 2.8). Always ending up with the same results, nothing looking as sharp as some of the other examples (Phil's post#49 & Matt's post#52). I guess I'm just sticking with the 28mm to have a little consistency.
 
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Hi Jonas, I did rack the focus to make sure that it was at it sharpest. But before I rolled. I can do another test and where I record the process.



This is a good question. I've had no luck finding any info on adjusting the Canon mount. Everything I've seen is regarding the PL mount.

Instructions are on page 221 of the Scarlet manual. It pictures the pl mount and the redfocus which is for pl mount but the operation should be the same for the canon mount just without the redfocus. Like Steve said you might want to borrow some pl lenses and see if those are soft in focus as well just to rule out any lens issues.
 
After doing a few quick test shots, I loaded the files into Redcine-x. I noticed that my shots seemed to be a bit soft when viewed at 100% with full debayer.

No problem with your camera or lenses. It's quite normal you get a soft picture at 100% because it's a BAYER pattern and not a full RGB sensor. The other pixels are interpolated.
 
Thanks for the comment Benoît-Joan.

No problem with your camera or lenses. It's quite normal you get a soft picture at 100% because it's a BAYER pattern and not a full RGB sensor. The other pixels are interpolated.

That's the thing, being very new to the red workflow I'm not sure what I'm seeing is normal or not.

If you check out posts #49 & #52, I don't seem to be reaching anything that sharp. So then I have to wonder if it's operator error, something with Canon glass or worst case, a problem with the camera itself. I think the safest bet would be to get together with another camera and see how the images compare.
 
Thanks for the comment Benoît-Joan.



That's the thing, being very new to the red workflow I'm not sure what I'm seeing is normal or not.

If you check out posts #49 & #52, I don't seem to be reaching anything that sharp. So then I have to wonder if it's operator error, something with Canon glass or worst case, a problem with the camera itself. I think the safest bet would be to get together with another camera and see how the images compare.

Miles,

It took me a while to get some sharp results. I'd do some more tests, perhaps with non Canon lenses if you have any. I feel like the Scarlet exposes my lens quality flaws more than any other camera I've used. Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but seems to be the case. I'm still having some issues with exposing properly and noise. I can't seem to get rid of noise in the shadows no matter what I do. Which, could affect sharpness based on compression perhaps? If my subject is well lit, and I'm using the sharpest lenses around I get great results. If I'm using lesser lenses, and there is lots of shadow detail, it isn't the best.
 
No problem with your camera or lenses. It's quite normal you get a soft picture at 100% because it's a BAYER pattern and not a full RGB sensor. The other pixels are interpolated.

He still should be getting sharper results than what he is getting.
 
Yes. They render slightly different. And remember that if you are scaling down, that there is an algorithm applied which in software render is user selectable. The simple answer is, don't get overly concerned about this unless you have a need to be. Pixel peeping is fine unless...


Thank you Stephen. While I've only begun to sort through the myriad steps of Red workflow, I am also deciding on what hard/soft ware to prioritize for acquisition to achieve best results, & my OCD is hung up on this new info that RR render is superior Lol. I don't expect this would ever be the most limiting variable of my workflow but am most interested in hearing what you find from ur RR vs RC tests! Thanks again.
 
No problem with your camera or lenses. It's quite normal you get a soft picture at 100% because it's a BAYER pattern and not a full RGB sensor. The other pixels are interpolated.

Yes but many other camera systems are also bayer and are not nearly as soft. From what I understand it is because RED is very serious about avoiding aliasing and uses stronger OLPF's than most which yields softer images but less likelihood of aliasing, so it is a bit of a trade-off.
 
Yes but many other camera systems are also bayer and are not nearly as soft. From what I understand it is because RED is very serious about avoiding aliasing and uses stronger OLPF's than most which yields softer images but less likelihood of aliasing, so it is a bit of a trade-off.

Yup and it's also softer because no edge enhancer or contrast enhancer is applied : it's a RAW format.
 
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