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Scarlet S35, FF35 3K Mode?

Casey Green

Casey Green

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Incredibly exciting news this past week with all of the announcements RED released! Thanks so much for all of the hard work and dedication!

I'm planning on purchasing the S35 Scarlet when it becomes available and had some additional questions. I brought this up a while back and thought it a good time to ask again after the Nov. 30th announcement:

One of the features I love about the RED ONE is the 3K mode (and using this to shoot with higher frame rates for eventual down-scaling to 1080p.)
With a Bayer Pattern sensor, having the extra resolution with higher framerates (especially for low light and visual fx work) is a real advantage.

I'm at a loss as to why there is no 3K mode (for use in achieving both higher framerates and shallower DOF than 2K) with the Scarlet S35 and FF35 models? I suppose I understand differentiating product lines, but if the hardware is capable, this almost seems a bit, "unRED-like". I don't mean any offense by that statement, it is just how my experience has always been with RED.

Currently, the 3K modes of Scarlet 2/3" and EPIC S35 are:

Scarlet 2/3" (3K 1-120fps)
EPIC S35 (3K 1-160fps)

Since Scarlet S35 and FF35 are currently advertised as capable of achieving 4K 1-30fps and 2K 1-72fps, respectively, one would think a 3K mode possible somewhere in between, such as 1-60fps).

3K was not initially included on RED ONE, but was later added after customer feedback. I'm hoping RED will please consider adding the 3K mode for the S35 and FF35?

I'd love to hear other people's opinions on this as well.

Any info is much appreciated.
 
Really? When did he say this? That would suck.
Not that I'm one of these people jonesing for FF very much but I would love to upgrade to a Monstro brain and use my FF Nikon glass in the future without having to go to Epic pricing territories. Damn shame if true.
 
Joseph Hutson said:
During the REDcentre podcast, he said they were weighing in their different options. FF may be an EPIC only thing, but it's too soon to say either way...
Click to expand...

Red has to differentiate the Epic from the Scarlet. The features are becoming so similar, this may be one way. And the smaller form factor of the Scarlet may make FF difficult.
 
Hope RED decides to produce a FF35 Scarlet.
If not a S35 with Monsto DR would be great. Electronic Lenses, Touch Tracking etc, and up to 6K with a wider range of frame rates at each setting.

Just one request please Red, most of us have waited patiently for news on the FF35 and S35 models, can you please let us know one way or another what the intentions are and the proposed specs.
I understand everything changes and am cool with that but most users have put off purchases for at least a year if not longer waiting for either the Scarlet S35 or FF35.

Thanks
Till
 
Joseph Hutson said:
According to Ted, there may not be an FF35 Scarlet...
Click to expand...

I'm a bit concerned about the s35 too.... it just seems so close to the more expensive Epic for the many people that don't need super slow-mo.

For me, Scarlet s35 is the perfect option and I am ready to invest (and rent Epic when needed).... but I am worried that it might get dumped. Hope i'm wrong.
 
Interesting...

What do you all think about the non-existent 3K mode on Scarlet S35/FF35? If it is possible, shouldn't it be there? (Again, remember this was not originally part of R1 until customers asked for it).
 
Personally if the FF35 Scarlet is not a runner then the S35
should have the following features, the S35 model would be different enough from the Epic FF35 and the 2/3 Scarlet models to have its own niche.

S35 with Better DR
Electronic Lenses Capability
5k (2;1) at 1-125fps
4K (2:1) at 1-125fps
Quad HD at 1-120fps
3K (2:1) at 1-160fps
2K (2:1) at 1-250fps
1080P (scaled from full frame) at 1-125fps
Reduced noise, touch focus/tracking,
time Lapse, frame ramping etc...
REDCODE 100 or higher
Other features similar to the Scarlet 2/3 and Fixed.
 
Casey Green said:
What do you all think about the non-existent 3K mode on Scarlet S35/FF35? If it is possible, shouldn't it be there?
Click to expand...

Jannard has stated in the past that framerate options require more chips which cost money.

Sure almost any framerate is possible as evidenced by the Epic but it also costs $21,000 more then the Scarlet.

Jim said in the Oct. 30th announcement that they added one ASIC and two new boards to the 2/3" Scarlets and that is why they went up in price.

I'm sure they could add a few chips to the S35 Scarlet and get 3k but the price would also go up. You have to stop somewhere and the S35 Scarlet will do 5k @ 24fps as well as a $28,000 camera. For $7k I am ok with that.

I also really, really hope RED doesn't cancel the FF35 Scarlet! That is the DMSC all of my professional photographer friends are looking at because it is FF35. They are used to buying $5k cameras so $12,000 is already a big jump for them. $32k for the Epic may be too much for many.
 
Justin O'Neill said:
'm sure they could add a few chips to the S35 Scarlet and get 3k but the price would also go up. You have to stop somewhere and the S35 Scarlet will do 5k @ 24fps as well as a $28,000 camera. For $7k I am ok with that.
Click to expand...

Yep, I would happily pay the $7k right now, just for 1-30fps/5k. The rest is a bonus.

72fps burst is more than enough for my needs.... and if I need more, i'll rent Epic.

I hope I am wrong with my gut feeling about the FF/s35 models.
 
I agree my first wish is for the FF35 Scarlet with electronic lens, tracking and focus etc.
Would be good to know one way or the other. It's been a long wait !
 
Justin O'Neill said:
Jannard has stated in the past that framerate options require more chips which cost money.

Sure almost any framerate is possible as evidenced by the Epic but it also costs $21,000 more then the Scarlet.

Jim said in the Oct. 30th announcement that they added one ASIC and two new boards to the 2/3" Scarlets and that is why they went up in price.

I'm sure they could add a few chips to the S35 Scarlet and get 3k but the price would also go up. You have to stop somewhere and the S35 Scarlet will do 5k @ 24fps as well as a $28,000 camera. For $7k I am ok with that.
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember what was said re: framerates and the need for extra hardware to pull it off, but I'm not sure that is the case here.

Keep in mind, early on, the original R1 did 4K @ 30fps, and 2K @ 120. It was logical that there should be a middle ground for a 3K mode possibly around 72fps. I believe it was build 14 when RED introduced the 3K @ 60fps option. There was no need for additional hardware, just a firmware update.

It seems logical, that the S35 and FF35 brains, as they are now, should be able to achieve a similar middle ground between the modes currently documented (4K @ 30fps and 2K @ 72fps). A 3K mode @ 60fps would be outstanding, but even 48fps or 50fps (PAL support) would be very useful.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at ALL complaining about the features and prices being shown. I'm amazed every day at the feats RED is accomplishing and anyone here knows how invested and involved I am in the RED community. I would just love to see the 3K mode (which has come in very handy for me in the past.) included. (high-fps blue screen shoots, etc.)

Keep in mind also that there are other factors to consider here, including DOF/lens choices, Files Size, Recording Time per media type, Quality for VFX work...

If 3K on the S35/FF35 is simply not possible, then I understand, but until I hear otherwise, I feel it's important to discuss in these forums.

RED, Thanks for listening!
 
Casey Green said:
Keep in mind, early on, the original R1 did 4K @ 30fps, and 2K @ 120. It was logical that there should be a middle ground for a 3K mode possibly around 72fps. I believe it was build 14 when RED introduced the 3K @ 60fps option. There was no need for additional hardware, just a firmware update.

It seems logical, that the S35 and FF35 brains, as they are now, should be able to achieve a similar middle ground between the modes currently documented (4K @ 30fps and 2K @ 72fps). A 3K mode @ 60fps would be outstanding, but even 48fps or 50fps (PAL support) would be very useful.
Click to expand...

Ah, but the RED One uses an FPGA which is very flexible even once it is out in the field and makes it easy to add things like extra framerates, 4.5k, REDCODE 42, etc.

Scarlet and Epic use ASICs which are pieces of hardware designed for a specific job. The DSMC brains will use many ASICs and boards so it is more like a 'system on a chip' but I think it would require more hardware to add the 3k frame rate option unlike the RED One FPGA.
 
Justin O'Neill said:
Ah, but the RED One uses an FPGA which is very flexible even once it is out in the field and makes it easy to add things like extra framerates, 4.5k, REDCODE 42, etc.

Scarlet and Epic use ASICs which are pieces of hardware designed for a specific job. The DSMC brains will use many ASICs and boards so it is more like a 'system on a chip' but I think it would require more hardware to add the 3k frame rate option unlike the RED One FPGA.
Click to expand...

Good points made, and that may very well be the case, but no one from RED has stated that as of yet. Not to mention that the ability to make changes after shipping is not what I'm asking about, rather, the question is, "Is 3K possible with the current S35 / FF35 hardware?"

Until we hear otherwise, I remain hopefully optimistic. :-)
 
I think the logic of practicality and business considerations point to a bigger separation between Epic and Scarlet -- and the FF format is one obvious way. FF DSLRs are going to come down in price -- and I imagine FF is going to be the rare luxury way to go in the cinema realm -- and the S35 frame will be the logical choice on most projects for multiple practical reasons often discussed.

In light of this, I wouldn't be surprised to see the FF exclusive to Epic. And it strikes me, while nifty to have a convertible FF stills & cinema camera -- most shooters will, for both financial and practical reasons, end up using a dedicated FF DSLR for stills (that can also shoot some video) and a S35 or 2/3" cinema camera, that can also, if needed, shoot stills. No matter what Red does, the array of choices will be a rich one.
 
Ok, no FF35. That's really annoying. So while we are at it, whatever happened to the 645 concept? The form factor of a Scarlet camera lends itself more to medium format than 35 anyhow. No photojournalist would be shooting scarlet stills in the field, but commercial and fashion people might. What do they want as a hybrid? 65Mp for serious advertising or something more like a Phase One back. This is a huge market and has the potential for a double revenue stream. In Europe the cinema rental houses have begun renting out these $30,000 Phase One photo backs. If they could have something that shoots video on the level of RED bundled into it for the same price, they would be on top of it in a second. I don't think it will be very long before a medium format manufacturer offers video. When that happens look out. THAT will be a real game changer. There will be a lot of Hasselblad lenses being snapped up.
 
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