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Scarlet post workflow / MacPro

Antonio Ribeiro

Antonio Ribeiro

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Hi folks,

I have bought a Scarlet X with quite a few other items so I can function, but I am worried about working with the files on post. That being said, I was the editor of a feature film shot entirely on the Red 1 using my current system (MacPro Quad Core Intel Xeon 3Ghz / 8GB RAM / Nvidea GeForce 8800 GT) and had no problem whatsoever, using Prores HQ at 2K in the first instance and then reconfirming the footage back to the red original files, for the grading in Australia. I didn't even use Redcine for this, instead, used the Red plug-in available for FCP 7, when you use the Log and Transfer option.

The issue here is I simply cannot afford a Red Rocket and fear the workflow from the Epic/Scarlet isn't as straight forward. Can somebody hopefully clarify this issue for me?

Thanks.
 
Hey Tony, there's been much debate as to wether one needs a mega computer to work with R3D files in post. A lot of people are working with these files and have similar set-ups as you do. A red rocket does facilitate but it is something you can work without. Look through "post production HARDWARE"

Perhaps you might want to upgrade your memory. 12gb-16gb seems to be what everyone has when working with R3D files.

Hope this helps somewhat.
 
Working with Scarlet is little different than the RED One. The catch is that the FCP7 plugin does not support EPIC/Scarlet footage for L&T, so your previous workflow is not an option. There are options and some are rather simple, hopefully affordable.

If you want the path of least resistance and no need for a RED Rocket, you could switch editing software. I know it's sacrilege to many FCP people to suggest a software change, however Premiere CS5.5 is a great choice and you can load the R3D files right into your bins and drop onto your timeline, no L&T wrappers, no transcodes, just import the clips and edit. I highly recommend picking up the 30-day free trial to see for yourself. They were running a special for FCP and Avid users to pick up Premiere for cheap. I think it has expired, but it may still be going. Otherwise Adobe is offering 20% off suites and certain apps through the end of the year...

Your system is older, but should still work for most editing tasks. I second William's suggestion of upgrading your RAM, if you can. Be sure to add or replace modules in accordance with the recommendations for your system to maximize performance. Make sure you have ample storage for media and can work from a fast RAID. The 8800GT video card is somewhat of a hinderance as it does not offer the additional CUDA acceleration of newer nVidia cards, which is useful in some apps like Premiere. Although, the GPU/ CUDA acceleration offers no benefit for R3D processing (or most video decompression / decoding), it accelerates other things such as transitions, FX, layering, helps speed up your display, etc..

You can still transcode to QuickTime Proxy format via REDCINE-X and if you do a 1/4 res or 1/2-res, half-quality debayer out to 720p, as an example, the transcode goes rather quickly. You can always edit with those self-generated proxies and conform back to the original files later. Lots of discussions in the workflow forum areas. RED workflow isn't bad at all if you don't overcomplicate it.

FCP7 seems to be dead as far as future development and updates. We should have native support for R3D files in FCPX at some point, but it's still up to Apple to either deliver it themselves, or deliver an SDK that is capable of building the interface for the files. While it's possible they may build in R3D support themselves (they claim they want to add support for more professional formats and are working on it), it's more likely that RED will end up doing it if/when Apple does release that SDK they have announced. Most of us who are following this, especially those of us who participate in Apple's Developer programs, are expecting this SDK to show itself this next year and most likely in June at Apple's World Wide Developer Conference.
 
+1 for Jeffs suggestion, also consider checking out Avid, both had discounts for FCP crossgrades, not sure if they are still going on or not though. The only real way to stick with FCP7 with Scarlet/Epic would be using Redcine X Pro to convert the files to prores to use in FCP7, and you don't have anyway to reconform to them with FCP7 cuz that NLE is EOL and has no Scarlet/Epic support for reconforming to the R3d's.

So options with your current NLE remain limited to say the least, but at least there is a limited workflow, beats no workflows. If you do opt to stick with it and forgo reconforming (inside FCP7) don't bother getting more Ram, FCP7 doesn't need it anyway being that it is 32bit... Personally I would jump ship to Avid, Adobe or both...I already have done so myself, despite feeling more comfortable on FCP7 from several years of usage...

ps maybe you can export an EDL or XML from you FCP7 cuts and reconform in another program? That way FCP7 can still be cut in and you can still conform back to the R3d files, although a little convoluted workflow wise. Not sure which program you'd use to reconform though, but its a possibility perhaps? I never tried it before personally, but perhaps there is a way to make this work?
 
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Hey Brian, Jeff and William,

Thanks so much for your quick replies. I already have CS5 suite with Premiere, so that would be a natural transition. Sadly I am only too aware of the big kick in the nuts Apple has given it's faithful FCP followers.

But I am truly tempted to upgrade to Avid as I used it in the past. And yes, upgrade the RAM whichever NLE option I take.


Jeff, can I use Premiere 5.0 for this, or do I have to upgrade to 5.5 ?

Thanks for your help.
 
Only CS5.5 supports Epic/Scarlet R3d files natively... You could use RedCine X Pro to convert them to something CS5.0 would take natively and skip the upgrade to work on R3d's natively in CS. Might not be a bad idea considering CS6 is dropping soon unless you have the desire to see what working with native r3dcode in CS5.5 is about... Supposedly CS6 is dropping April/May
 
Hi Brian

The Premiere Pro 5.5 seems like the best out of the box solution but with the two graphic cards inserted in your machine (Quadro 2000 + Tesla C2075), which do bump up the cost a bit. So the question here is:

Does the Red Rocket card provide better workflow with Premiere, FCP and Avid, or is the combination of those two graphic cards a better choice with Premiere Pro? It seems like two threes and one six scenario. Adobe Premiere Pro 5.5 seems to be considerably cheaper than Avid MC6. What do you guys think?
 
I am in the same boat as Antonio, but I would PERFER to edit in FCPX, mostly because I have FCP 6 (not 7) and even though I have basic skills in FCP, I would rather learn FCPX in hopes that FCPX gets better. I have seen too often what Adobe has done to Mac users in the past (delayed versions and features for the Mac that had been in Windoz from day one, not upgrading etc.) So despite liking and have used Adobe products for over 20 years,

I want to figure out how to get as MUCH resolution out of my soon (hopefully) to arrive Scarlet, into a mac tower or macbook pro and then edited in FCPX. - I don't need to reconform, since I will export directly out of FCPX (or am I missing something?)

Thoughts?
 
I see your point Kevin. Because I also do a fair amount of work for other directors/producers as editor, the issue I have with FCP is they are using the banner of 'professional' over FCP X, when it simply doesn't allow you to a) open previous FCP project files, b) export OMF and XML, this is its greatest drawback for me. They have gone back to the drawing board with this one and in the process they kicked a whole bunch of guys like me in the teeth. However, on a more positive note, it does take advantage of the MacPro's 64-bit architecture and does allow you to output straight out of the machine as you said, which for some jobs might be handy. I had a play with it a while ago and I just can't stop seeing it as a glorified i-movie though.

I think I need to read a bit more about Adobe Premiere Pro. Seems a good option for your buck. I also have a Blackmagic Multibridge. Will this be of any use to me if that is the route I decide to take? Not sure.
 
you can totally function without a rocket or a cuda card, it still works but it all depends on how much time you are willing to wait, how many layers you have, how long your sequence is, what effects and filters you use, frame rates, etc...that being said start with the system you have and add to it if things are too slow for you to do the post work in what you personally consider a timely fashion. start with getting more ram. then a rocket and then get a cuda if you want some extra speed. an SSD for the aps wont hurt either... but pretty soon the computer is pricey, so don't think for a second you need to do this all at once, start bare bones and add to it as your needs increase, etc... so think about if you really need the speed. some people get by fine letting the system render for hours... really depends on your client needs... there are a lot of factors to generalize this is the problem

ps maybe a rental house has a rocket you could rent when your scarlet shows up? thats a cheap way to see if you really feel justified in needing it or not.... not sue if you can find a rental house doing that with a cuda card, but perhaps?
 
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Brian Merlen said:
you can totally function without a rocket or a cuda card, it still works but it all depends on how much time you are willing to wait, how many layers you have, how long your sequence is, what effects and filters you use, frame rates, etc...that being said start with the system you have and add to it if things are too slow for you to do the post work in what you personally consider a timely fashion. start with getting more ram. then a rocket and then get a cuda if you want some extra speed. an SSD for the aps wont hurt either... but pretty soon the computer is pricey, so don't think for a second you need to do this all at once, start bare bones and add to it as your needs increase, etc... so think about if you really need the speed. some people get by fine letting the system render for hours... really depends on your client needs... there are a lot of factors to generalize this is the problem

ps maybe a rental house has a rocket you could rent when your scarlet shows up? thats a cheap way to see if you really feel justified in needing it or not.... not sue if you can find a rental house doing that with a cuda card, but perhaps?
Click to expand...

Hi Brian,

I think the issue for those who intend to use the camera with clients is, time is money. So... yes, it may make the system more expensive but is the way to go if you want to have both a machine you can cut fast with and one you can probably take with you on set for wrangling. And yes, you do have a point there about the RAM. The only thing I am equating in terms of priorities (i.e. investment v cashflow), is whether I should get a Red Rocket first or the combined Quadro-Cuda cards with Premiere Pro 5.5.

Am I right in thinking that the Rocket card enables you to convert in (almost) real time the R3D flies onto any other format (wrapper codecs), right? Which then enables you to create files to work with any NLE system. On the other hand, Premiere Pro 5.5 from what I read so far does work with native R3D files. So if I am doing post in-house then maybe the Quadro-Cuda cards seem to be the best option in the first instance.

So to conclude, speed please! First and foremost. I agree with testing the waters with a card from a rental house, but on the other hand I realise these cards will change things dramatically and it almost feels like a no brainer for me. Not sure about my accountant feels the same way though....
 
the rocket probably makes more sense speed wise then the cuda cards...
 
Antonio Ribeiro said:
Hi Brian, when you have a moment can you give me your reasons why?

Many thanks
Click to expand...

Antonio, probably Jeff's answers is why:

Jeff Kilgroe said:
Although, the GPU/ CUDA acceleration offers no benefit for R3D processing (or most video decompression / decoding), it accelerates other things such as transitions, FX, layering, helps speed up your display, etc..
Click to expand...
 
yea jeff said it earlier, so i think in an either or situation you would get more mileage (or kilometers) from a rocket. whether you cut native or not it will speed up transcodes...
 
Helpful discussion - am in the same boat: FCP7 - stonkin' 12 core Mac - little clue as to getting started.
My thanks

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
Ok guys, sounds good, apologies for my slowness in understanding the whole thing. I have never been so excited about a camera whilst being so acutely aware of the limitations of my current system. I think I'm starting to grasp what needs to be done and below is what I'll do (feel free to chip in with any thoughts please):

1. Ramp up the RAM from 8GB to 16GB (Now)
2. Try/buy Adobe Premiere Pro 5.5 (Now)
3. Buy a Red Rocket card (Now-ish)
4. In due course, buy the Quadro/Cuda cards for speed with general editing (Later)

Most of my drives, including a couple of RAID 3 drives, are currently connected via esata. I am however, looking into buying a RAID system that's substantially faster. It includes:

1 x Enhance-Tech E800MS 8-bay Cable-less Enclosure
1 x Areca ARC-1880x SAS RAID Controller Card
8 x matched 2.0 TB Desktop Edition Drives
2 x 1m miniSAS to miniSAS Cables

Any thoughts on this?

Many thanks once again for all your helpful advice,

Antonio
 
Generally, I think there are two types of workflows and it's a 'pay now or pay later' type thing.

With CS5.5 you can edit the files in realtime in their native .r3d (even on a laptop using 1/2 or 1/4 debayer or whatever; it's still super high res) and then only transcode to something else when you "film out" to Blu-Ray or another deliverable format. That transcoding will be slow without a RedRocket, even on a 12-core, but at that point it'd be a 'set it and forget it' type thing while it renders for a couple of days. With a RedRocket the transcode would be in real-time. Also, I think if you start applying transitions and things on native .r3ds this way, even with a kick-ass CUDA card it may bog down at times...

The other option is the get a RedRocket, transcode to something less taxing to work with than RAW4 or 5k, then re-link up the files for the online/colour correction (which I think is what you did before.) Only drawback is having to splurge for the REDrocket.

Personally, the only time I'd be wishing for an RR is if I render out, it takes a couple of days, and then the client is like, "oh I want this changed and that changed." Then I gotta re-render for another couple of days. For independent narrative work this would be less likely, but if you're working for someone else that slow turn around is gonna be a deal breaker.

It would be interesting if ATi or nVidia (or RED?) would adopt .r3d support in their hardware... While I have absolutely no knowledge of the processors behind the RR, I find it hard to believe that current GPUs don't have the TFLOPs needed to accelerate .r3ds.
 
Mike P. said:
Generally, I think there are two types of workflows and it's a 'pay now or pay later' type thing.

With CS5.5 you can edit the files in realtime in their native .r3d (even on a laptop using 1/2 or 1/4 debayer or whatever; it's still super high res) and then only transcode to something else when you "film out" to Blu-Ray or another deliverable format. That transcoding will be slow without a RedRocket, even on a 12-core, but at that point it'd be a 'set it and forget it' type thing while it renders for a couple of days. With a RedRocket the transcode would be in real-time. Also, I think if you start applying transitions and things on native .r3ds this way, even with a kick-ass CUDA card it may bog down at times...

The other option is the get a RedRocket, transcode to something less taxing to work with than RAW4 or 5k, then re-link up the files for the online/colour correction (which I think is what you did before.) Only drawback is having to splurge for the REDrocket.

Personally, the only time I'd be wishing for an RR is if I render out, it takes a couple of days, and then the client is like, "oh I want this changed and that changed." Then I gotta re-render for another couple of days. For independent narrative work this would be less likely, but if you're working for someone else that slow turn around is gonna be a deal breaker.

It would be interesting if ATi or nVidia (or RED?) would adopt .r3d support in their hardware... While I have absolutely no knowledge of the processors behind the RR, I find it hard to believe that current GPUs don't have the TFLOPs needed to accelerate .r3ds.
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,

Yes, you are so right. Whilst I recognise the value of the RR, I find it expensive. Although other cards out there don't have the number crunching ability for the R3Ds, it might only be a matter of time until someone does. But again, I might find myself buying a RR out of frustration with having to wait for paint to dry. Having edited for the past few years with FCP, believe you me I know what that feels like! Can't wait to get my hands on the Scarlet to test all this out. I'll be curious to know more about people out there who are in the same boat and are starting to experiment with the Scarlet. My thoughts are that if for some corporate jobs I'm shooting using 12:1 compression, this should shorten the transcode time using Redcine X, right?

I found this interesting blog, which outlines RED workflow for all the NLEs out there: http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/category/red-camera-and-post/
 
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