SCARLET NO NOISE AT 4K, 3K, 2K

[Scott Crawley]

This I can agree on. =)

I'm glad we can agree on that.

Arguing about the precise definition of 4K resolution to a small % tolerance is semantics and aside from the point.

You are making a different argument at this point. What I am saying is that the math is valid. The validity of his point as moot is your opinion, one I do not share.
...
your response was to call into question the definition of 4K. His point is correct.

Just for the record I understand that you and Les' position is: 4k from Bayer does not mathematically equal a 4k result. I concede that and take no issue with it. Jannard said as much himself.

My argument was always that Bayer pattern may not equal 4k mathematically, but it is sufficient for the creation of "4k" cinema. Les asked: When you deliver in 4k what are you delivering? In direct response to that question the frame sizes I mentioned were not aside from the point, they were exactly the point.

We are not forging new ground here. Smarter guys than me have already made these arguments, I'm just recalling them.

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[Stephen Gentle]

Scott - did you look at the link? The 'FUD' that you only get 3.2K from shooting 4K is from Jannard, not me.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?40067-Thoughts-and-Tips&p=539848&viewfull=1#post539848

This is measured resolution. As in to get that number, they shoot a resolution chart and count all the lines. Unless all your footage is only of test charts, it doesn't matter. The camera has a photosite for every pixel in the pixel raster it produces (that is, it's a full 4K pixel raster) it's just that part of the colour information is interpolated. It's probably the OLPF that makes a bigger difference to the amount of measured resolution though.

Most 1080p cameras up to now haven't resolved the measured resolution anywhere near 1080p, but it still doesn't mean you can't watch them on a 1080p display.

4K originated RED footage looks amazing projected at 4K. The fact that it's not mathematically resolving as much detail as you could theoretically fit into the raster doesn't change that.

 

[Timur Civan]

Resoluton aside, my Scarlet is rather noisy. IT just is. Shooting on Epic today, 3x cleaner. Ryan Koo's scarlet, 3x cleaner..... another friends scarlet about equal to mine.

just the luck of the draw i suppose. this happens in all cameras. My 5DmkI was gorgeous, my MKII is a grainy mess, while another MKII i used was spotless.

 

[Les C.]

Resoluton aside, my Scarlet is rather noisy. IT just is. Shooting on Epic today, 3x cleaner. Ryan Koo's scarlet, 3x cleaner..... another friends scarlet about equal to mine.

just the luck of the draw i suppose. this happens in all cameras. My 5DmkI was gorgeous, my MKII is a grainy mess, while another MKII i used was spotless.

If that's true, maybe what is needed is for RED to include a standard printed test image. The new user could photograph it in sunlight, at 3 stops above wide open, setting exposure with shutter speed. Then, there would be something to compare? This could be done without RED's help by shooting the same magazine cover.

Have you queried RED about this difference in noise? Are they testing the sensors for noise at all? Maybe you should RMA the camera.

I did note that one user noted that his perception that the noise level greatly increased after flashing 3.0. Are your friends shooting with the same flash version and same camera settings in the same light?

 

[Brad Crawford]

Folks need to remember to expose to the right and at least do a proper 1 light to bring black values down to where they belong.

Sorry can you explain more what you mean by a 1 light? First time i've seen that terminology.

 

[Timur Civan]

If that's true, maybe what is needed is for RED to include a standard printed test image. The new user could photograph it in sunlight, at 3 stops above wide open, setting exposure with shutter speed. Then, there would be something to compare? This could be done without RED's help by shooting the same magazine cover.

Have you queried RED about this difference in noise? Are they testing the sensors for noise at all? Maybe you should RMA the camera.

I did note that one user noted that his perception that the noise level greatly increased after flashing 3.0. Are your friends shooting with the same flash version and same camera settings in the same light?

It just happens. Its not hindering me, it just means i have to treat it as a 400-500 ISO instead of 800. no biggie.

Sorry can you explain more what you mean by a 1 light? First time i've seen that terminology.

It refers to printer lights in film. it was the way you did a "1st pass CC" with celluloid when you had the film transferred to the inter positive from the negative. The term 1st light refers to your first pass of CC before you do a real grade.

 

[Brad Crawford]

Thanks for the quick and concise response Timur!

 

[Scott Crawley]

Resoluton aside, my Scarlet is rather noisy. IT just is. Shooting on Epic today, 3x cleaner. Ryan Koo's scarlet, 3x cleaner..... another friends scarlet about equal to mine.

just the luck of the draw i suppose. this happens in all cameras. My 5DmkI was gorgeous, my MKII is a grainy mess, while another MKII i used was spotless.

Adherence to proper black shade procedure would probably explain the variation in performance we are seeing in most cases. Some folks are patient and particular and wait for the machine to get up to temperature first. Others are in a hurry and fail to verify that they are at normal operating temp before doing their baseline calibration.

Which camp are you in Timur? It is human nature to rush through it the first time out. After all we want to shoot the thing right out of the box! If you haven't already done so, I suggest doing another careful calibration.

 

[Erich Ocean]

Red doesn't apply sharpening, so you have to sharpen to taste

How are people doing this though (and when in the process)? The "Sharpness" slider in RedCine-X Pro doesn't do anything AFAICT, but I get decent sharpening from the "Unsharp" post processing filter (same as I would in Photoshop).

But, does it really make sense to run the unsharp mask during a first light output to RedLogFilm? That doesn't seem right...

Anyway, I'd love a concise explanation from an experienced RED RAW colorist on when and how they applying sharpening to RED footage. Thanks!

 

[Scott Crawley]

How are people doing this though (and when in the process)? The "Sharpness" slider in RedCine-X Pro doesn't do anything AFAICT, but I get decent sharpening from the "Unsharp" post processing filter (same as I would in Photoshop).

But, does it really make sense to run the unsharp mask during a first light output to RedLogFilm? That doesn't seem right...

Anyway, I'd love a concise explanation from an experienced RED RAW colorist on when and how they applying sharpening to RED footage. Thanks!

This is from the thread DEBAYERING - PRO RES from RCX - for best results, it may shed a light on your sharpness slider question.

Today, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Martin Beek
I know i'm going to sound stupid asking this, but where can i find that OLPF compensation setting? Using RCXpro 12.20390


Btw. Half Normal might look sharper, but there is a lot of aliasing too - specially on hair and other fine lines.

Thanks,

Martin





It's now just called "sharpness".

Graeme​

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I'm not the colorist you asked for, but I wouldn't sharpen a 1light in RLF. If I knew we were going back to R3D for finishing I might give Editorial a sharpened RC3 1light so long as FX or others down the line had no beef with it. If a second color pass were being done from edited ProRes files I wouldn't sharpen the first pass at all. It all depends upon the workflow.

Sound right?