Scarlet MX vs. FS700 Q7

[Sean Tierney]

First off I know there are a few threads on Red User that discuss the direct comparison between the Scarlet and the FS700, but what about when we add the Odyssey 7Q into the equation. I hate to regurgitate threads somewhat but maybe someone can add some insight into this? Obviously this is the personal struggle I am presented with when between the two. The two camera I have found are both good deals, the Scarlet kit being sub 10k with 141 hours and the FS+Q7 kit being sub 7k with 120 hours.

This is where I'm at in my head currently. I am a dp for a company but also a one man band in my side project. we use sony as my work F55 (not a fan of its look) and have used an epic twice, but not a scarlet.

Scarlet -

Pro;

-REDCODE will save me more storage space, 64GB mag vs the 512 Convergent SSD.
-The "look" is more appealing for the short 2-4 minute story telling pieces I would be doing.
-Wanting to upgrade to Epic Dragon at some point, so there is a clear upgrade path.
-Having the knowledge of the red family for future work
-Less clunky design

Con;

-Crop factor in general and if i wanted to use 2k 60fps
-Needed more light for lower light situations

FS700 + Q7

Pro;

-Slow motion
-Ability to just record and a standard card for smaller projects and not use raw.
- Cheaper price point (possible would even out with all the media i'd need) w/ the ability to purchase other gear such as better audio gear.
- Low light situations

Cons;

-Clunky design
- Multiple parts from multiple companies resulting in failure
-The "sony look" ... this may be subjective but I get a warmer feeling when i see red footage and can tell right off the bat.
- If i decide to switch back to RED I would have to resell everything vs a trade in.

Weigh in what do you think?

 

[Rolando Vega]

This is actually what I did. I had a Scarlet and I was getting a lot more one-man band shoots that needed quick turnarounds. I loved the look of my Scarlet, but I just couldn't keep up with having to deal with the typical RED (or any higher end camera) problems of running out of media or battery life.

So I traded my very basic Scarlet kit one for one with a loaded FS700 + Odyssey 7Q kit + Speedbooster + etc kit. With my FS700+7Q combo I love recording ProResHQ straight from the 4K raw signal. And when those low-budget, quick turnaround shoots come along, I love being able to shoot straight to the SD card. Those types of clients don't care whether its AVC-HD vs. ProRes vs. REDCode.

I do miss my RED sometimes. I have told myself that when a larger budget shoot comes around, I am just going to rent. But for now, I am making more money than I have ever made because of the versatility that a camera combo like the FS700 + 7Q gives me.

You really just have to find the camera for your type of work.

 

[Sean Tierney]

This is actually what I did. I had a Scarlet and I was getting a lot more one-man band shoots that needed quick turnarounds. I loved the look of my Scarlet, but I just couldn't keep up with having to deal with the typical RED (or any higher end camera) problems of running out of media or battery life.

So I traded my very basic Scarlet kit one for one with a loaded FS700 + Odyssey 7Q kit + Speedbooster + etc kit. With my FS700+7Q combo I love recording ProResHQ straight from the 4K raw signal. And when those low-budget, quick turnaround shoots come along, I love being able to shoot straight to the SD card. Those types of clients don't care whether its AVC-HD vs. ProRes vs. REDCode.

I do miss my RED sometimes. I have told myself that when a larger budget shoot comes around, I am just going to rent. But for now, I am making more money than I have ever made because of the versatility that a camera combo like the FS700 + 7Q gives me.

You really just have to find the camera for your type of work.

This is some great stuff Rolando, I neglected to mention I have a 5D Mark III which would be my other camera to use on simple shoots w/ quick turn around. What was your storage footprint when using the SSD's on the 700? do you find yourself blowing through drives to keep up with the footage?

 

[Rolando Vega]

one (1) 256GB Convergent Design SSD can record 2 hours and 45 minutes. I have two of those in my Odyssey. So I can record 5 and a half hours without exporting.

 

[Mike P.]

I have only used an FS700 twice (without 7Q, though I have used one of those connected to a vanilla Alexa instead of a codex); in terms of "clunky" design, I'd say DSMC is just as clunky. No XLRs, basically a brick that can be difficult to balance on a tripod, incredibly power hungry, and incredibly high media costs all work against RED. Also, you're not considering tertiary costs like better tripod/support that can handle ~20-30lbs load (which gets expensive fast). You are also giving up HFR with Scarlet as its 2k/60p looks like crap, and 3k/48p likely isn't as slow as you'll want.

While the OCD in me hates having to use 3rd-party/additional gack - with additional/proprietary batteries, media, and cables etc. - the 7Q screen is pretty great as an off-board monitor and, as mentioned, you'd get 4k raw/prores/dnxhd, full-sensor downscale for HFR, and 1080p internal recording, all for a substantially cheaper price and without as many associated costs. And you could still fly the FS700 on a gimbal and its small battery lasts forever.

I also wouldn't recommend buying a Scarlet right now unless you need it for a specific project soon... Probably best to wait for NAB or get something cheaper that offers similar capabilities to hold you over (e.g. an FS700+7Q, Blackmagic, GH4)...

This is all assuming you meant Scarlet-X not Scarlet-Dragon (as Scarlet-Dragon does have some obvious/clear advantages... though it costs even more.)

 

[Sean Tierney]

Raising some good points here. Yes, meant to say the X not the D. I wouldnt be thinking twice if the Dragon was in the foreseeable budget.. but it may be who knows. Luckily I have all the correct support for whichever way I go purchasing a bunch of gear with my 5d Raw setup thinking ahead to the potentially heavier future. Which did really add up.
Isnt the newest firmware able to support 3k WS at 60 and 4k WS at 48? Or am I just misreading some post's.. which I may be. The frame rate thing isnt a killer for me, espically since i don't want to start overusing the feature. All in moderation i suppose. The multiple 3rd party attachments do really get to me. but I havent seen any complaints using it so far between people I know and people via the web.

I do agree w/ all of what you're saying, I guess it's the "look" of the RED's that have me wanting more from my brief use with it. I use the F55 at our studio a ton and the sony look has never been flattering to me. though w/ the raw option I could have more freedom. But maybe at this points ive been just comparing footage so it feels like my mind just knows what footage is red and what is sony by now?

I suppose also the sony is at such a fantastic deal, I could possibly trade up towards a Epic MX or Scarlet D after I see what NAB holds. Since the Q7 combo is still somewhat new I dont think I would really take a hit on a trade or resale.

I have only used an FS700 twice (without 7Q, though I have used one of those connected to a vanilla Alexa instead of a codex); in terms of "clunky" design, I'd say DSMC is just as clunky. No XLRs, basically a brick that can be difficult to balance on a tripod, incredibly power hungry, and incredibly high media costs all work against RED. Also, you're not considering tertiary costs like better tripod/support that can handle ~20-30lbs load (which gets expensive fast). You are also giving up HFR with Scarlet as its 2k/60p looks like crap, and 3k/48p likely isn't as slow as you'll want.

While the OCD in me hates having to use 3rd-party/additional gack - with additional/proprietary batteries, media, and cables etc. - the 7Q screen is pretty great as an off-board monitor and, as mentioned, you'd get 4k raw/prores/dnxhd, full-sensor downscale for HFR, and 1080p internal recording, all for a substantially cheaper price and without as many associated costs. And you could still fly the FS700 on a gimbal and its small battery lasts forever.

I also wouldn't recommend buying a Scarlet right now unless you need it for a specific project soon... Probably best to wait for NAB or get something cheaper that offers similar capabilities to hold you over (e.g. an FS700+7Q, Blackmagic, GH4)...

This is all assuming you meant Scarlet-X not Scarlet-Dragon (as Scarlet-Dragon does have some obvious/clear advantages... though it costs even more.)

 

[Brian Merlen]

7q is a great tool, its on a Epic MX on a job i am on right now...it can be your offline media (plus there are many cheaper on board recorder options if you don't have time to deal with r3d files).

i wouldn't trade my red for any sony, f55, fs700 for sure, f65, hell nothing...maybe an XT or 65mm Arri or Amira...but hell no not sony!

you can get both the cameras your considering used cheap these days.. other things to consider is how your AB batteries or vmounts can work on more then just a red... red like alexa is difficult as a one man band, but any decent camera is...if form took precedent we'd all shoot iPhones lol.. ill add more later but for a long list of reasons i'd go for the red...used parts are cheap if you can find reliable sellers, mags are cheap these days..

EDIT

okay i admit the frame rates of the sony did attract me, as well as the fact i have 2 E mount lenses...but the truth is Emount format is DOA compared to PL and the many choices a red would give you.. there are going to be lots of cheap 4k cameras coming along, but many have some limitations compared to the higher ended models. the scarlet other then frame rate is a damn fine camera, sure its heavy, you might want a right angled BNC barrel, you may wanna buy smaller mags cuz of the prices, there are "flaws" in some specific ways, but compared to a sony its night and day difference i feel like...that sony is gonna be selling cheaper and cheaper, cuz they keep pumping out new reiterations of it too...im not too keen on that kind of a business model to be honest... pump and dump handy cams lol?

something to consider is the red upgrade program won't last forever and ever, eventually they will phase it out. so don't assume it will be there forever, it won't be...no idea when or how much notice we will get either... but so far its been a long time, got my scarlet upgraded in july last year...its been great...


one day i think red will sell all their BT used scarlets that were traded for epics, maybe? like they did with red one? who knows, i thought that was gonna coincide with the price raise on the upgrades...but i was wrong

 

[Mike Garrick]

THe biggest problem with Sony is the "Sony look " and the only camera that didn't have it has been phased out (F65) ....so go figure.

 

[Tony Harris]

Use your eyes and research the look you want and not the hype. When you love a camera it doesn't matter what everyone else is doing. Get the best bang for your buck. Don't buy a $30,000 loaded truck if a $7,000 truck has everything you need because you won't be happy at all. i have a sony FS100 and I love it for small jobs and it looks great. I have watch people master this camera and trade looks and I just updated it with some awesome profiles. I have to run test but the sad thing is from doing jobs I haven't ran one test on my epic x since I got it. I will only use it to make big bucks on feature films etc. Right now everything cost to much so I have to step my game up and get a budget. If that Sony 700 does the job GET IT everything has an end of life but the better choice that fit your needs can last a life time. Do you my friend =)

 

[Sean Tierney]

You're right tony. Everyone made some awesome points here. My needs / wants are two different things. I have a ton of quick turn around work coming up. Some of it might not even need raw or anything past 1080, that's my current need is a versatile camera. The whole kit came to 6400 shipped to my door in excellent condition with low hours. The way I see it, I can use this to make the money on quick paying jobs... THEN.. switch over to Red when my budget allows for an Epic and when my needs change. Some what of your truck analogy, no sense in buying the 30k truck if its missing the steering wheel (HFR on the scarlet)

 

[Tony Harris]

I try to help people avoid a pit fall. I've learned that listening to a lot of people and they don't make something stick is a waste of time. I bought a camaro v6 no T tops and thought I was cool until some younger guys pulled up in a z28 and started talking about my ride and didn't think I heard them. They made valid points...Damn what a waste of money..he don't even have T tops on that bitch if he can't afford the real camaro don't buy one. I went to the dealer and traded that V6 for the Z28 and didn't look back! T tops leather loaded -used 1994 over the 1999 V6 and was happy. Don't settle for less wait and then buy it for less. I have a JVC gy200, sony fs100 and now a Epic-X I love them and still use them all and shot two features with the JVC..brotha get what you like for your jobs and let the rest fall to the way side. Got my 3 cameras over the years I'm done until they fall apart.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

I think the one point made, that make any sense, is that if u don't have the proper workflow and don't want the professional features needed on most productions, then get a prosumer camera

 

[Tony Harris]

What make sense is do what makes you happy and let the rest of that jazz fall by the wayside. Don't spend your time or life listening to so called industry standards, if people like your work who cares about your gear.