Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet gets injured straddling two sides of the fence

antiquaeuropa

Active member
Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Messages
31
Reaction score
0
Points
0
At under 3k it may compete well next year. Who knows until we see Scarlet and the competition that will be. However, it does not seem very well positioned to me. On the one hand, it is likely too expensive for all but the wealthiest of consumers for their home movie purposes. On the other hand, it seems within too great of reach of the long-established companies likely offerings.

Perhaps the record times will make it less than ideal for event, news, and documentary. The 2/3" is a poor compromise for feature cinema. Wouldn't almost all of the people interested in this Scarlet for $3k be even more interested a better camera for $5k or more. I mean the problem for most people dedicated to realizing their dream of cinema is not gathering together $5k-8k. (At least not in the US. . . I do understand that other people in poorer countries around the world would not see it this way, but these people have the advantage that their local population does not have such an high expectation of quality for their local cinema as Americans have.) If Jannard can do this Scarlet for 3k, then why not deliver a more robust camera for more money. Why shoot so slow when the higher quality levels of the market have not yet been fully addressed?

I think that S16 instead of 2/3" would be highly valued (many people will not settle for less than 35mm). A faster lens seeing as how indies are alway short on lighting is almost necessary. What about an EVF? I can't imagine how focus will be good enough to merit 3k. Alternatives for longer recording. If the lens could not be absolutely super, then make a couple at different levels and sell them separately with interchangeability. 3k and 120fps are very cool but that is not really what we poor independents need to make features great. 72fps and 2k would more than suffice for most situations.

I, a huge Red nut who drives all of his loved ones crazy talking about it all of the time, for one can easily imagine Panasonic releasing a camera that even I would choose over Scarlet (though I probably still would not want even this imagined Panny). I don't know whether Panasonic will choose to get its act together, but they could if they wanted. How about an HVX 300 2/3" 1080p DVC Pro HD 72fps, interchangeable lens or a really nice included lens at least 1.9 with some automatic image correction (like CA reduction, removal of geometric distortion, etc.), nicer ergonomics because of weight distribution and more space for button placement. You can easily imagine a very robust and stable camera that would be much less of a headache to deal with (easy to go right into Final Cut Studio all the way through without anything else). You can choose your look and just bake it in. I realize that the image would still probably not be quite as good as Scarlet, but would the difference be enough to justify it? The difference between 3k and the likely 6k from Panasonic would not mean so much to me even though I don't have very much money because I am dedicated to realizing my cinematic dreams and 3k does not require so much dedicate to make in the US.

Obviously, Red was going to announce something that would be better than the competition to date-- that was expected. After all, who in the hell would choose some new upstart instead of a long-established big firm without a few damn good reasons. Red certainly has given some good reasons for Scarlet, but I still have a tough time imagining what group will find this camera the perfect compromise for their needs. By contrast, Red One promises to be exactly what those who don't have access to large capital, who yet still aspire to create highly artistic cinema have yearned for. Red One is of course not perfect but the imperfections are not so much due to the choice of what market it aims to compete, but rather they are chronological, technological, monetary, or practical limitations. The worst aspect of the Scarlet announcement for me is that it is the signal that Red is going to stop focusing as much on its core audience, which can only come at this core's expense. All the same, I am still saving as fast as I can to purchase a Red One and the needed accessories.
 
How about an HVX 300 2/3" 1080p DVC Pro HD 72fps, interchangeable lens or a really nice included lens... I realize that the image would still probably not be quite as good as Scarlet, but would the difference be enough to justify it? The difference between 3k and the likely 6k from Panasonic would not mean so much to me even though I don't have very much money because I am dedicated to realizing my cinematic dreams and 3k does not require so much dedicate to make in the US.

LOL! What on earth are you on about? You would gladly pay $6k for a 1080p camera from Panasonic with image quality that "would still probably not be quite as good as Scarlet"? But a smaller camera with higher resolution for half the cost is a disappointment? :usd:
 
I guess the most vocal people against Scarlet are "indies". For many of us who aren't indie folk we want to make saleable videos and documentaries and this is a perfect tool to have. I do a lot of backpacking and kayaking and mountaineering. I DON'T want big interchangeable lenses to lug around creation. I want something I can hike with that still produces fantastic quality. I want something I can mount on the bow of my kayak. I want something I can cram into tight spaces to get the shot and not have to worry about carrying a bunch of gear and a bulky lens or two. This Scarlet sounds perfect. For serious indie stuff it will probably be great for certain types of shots in certain situations, but not as the main camera. I don't think it's designed as an "A" camera for a big shoot. RED has positioned itself with three great cameras at three tiers in the marketplace with three different types of cameras. It seems pretty simple to me. Scarlet will not be "injured" straddling some imaginary fence. It will do very very well and fits the needs of a LOT of excited videographers.
 
hmm. . . no, I don't think that I am the crazy one

hmm. . . no, I don't think that I am the crazy one

LOL! What on earth are you on about? You would gladly pay $6k for a 1080p camera from Panasonic with image quality that "would still probably not be quite as good as Scarlet"? But a smaller camera with higher resolution for half the cost is a disappointment? :usd:

Listen I am not out of my mind. Have you ever used a camera stabilizer? It looks like the shape of Scarlet would make it much more difficult than something like the HVX. Resolution is not everything. FYI smaller and lighter is much harder to operate keeping things stable at least for me. If you have a different experience, let me know how you keep your feather-light cameras rock solid pulling your complex moves. . . or maybe you thought that I was planning on buying the camera just for shooting rez charts and comparing camera stats online!
 
So you don't want a small camera then. Why are you even posting on the Scarlet forum? The whole point of Scarlet was to design a "Professional Pocket Camera." You can always bolt extra crap onto the Scarlet to make it bigger and heavier. But you can't shave any size and weight off of an HVX.

Have you ever carried an HVX around in a large jacket pocket? Have you ever stolen shots in public with an HVX without attracting unwanted attention?

Besides, with a metal body it's not going to be as light as something like an HV20. And think of how many great movies were shot handheld on a little Bolex.
 
I guess the most vocal people against Scarlet are "indies". For many of us who aren't indie folk we want to make saleable videos and documentaries and this is a perfect tool to have. I do a lot of backpacking and kayaking and mountaineering. I DON'T want big interchangeable lenses to lug around creation. I want something I can hike with that still produces fantastic quality. I want something I can mount on the bow of my kayak. I want something I can cram into tight spaces to get the shot and not have to worry about carrying a bunch of gear and a bulky lens or two. This Scarlet sounds perfect. For serious indie stuff it will probably be great for certain types of shots in certain situations, but not as the main camera. I don't think it's designed as an "A" camera for a big shoot. RED has positioned itself with three great cameras at three tiers in the marketplace with three different types of cameras. It seems pretty simple to me. Scarlet will not be "injured" straddling some imaginary fence. It will do very very well and fits the needs of a LOT of excited videographers.

Thanks for helping me see one of the really nice applications of Scarlet. I bet that you will make some nice footage while kayaking.

However, I guess that as a viewer of your potential kind of footage that I would probably like the HV20 or HV30 (3 megapixels BTW) or something similar just about as well as with the Scarlet. You can get crisp, clear, beautiful footage with these Canon's or similar cameras, and they will be even better and cheaper next year when Scarlet comes out. They are smaller and lighter than Scarlet, run on cheap and plentiful tape and will be cheaper to replace if your camera falls in the water.

How much better do you think that this type of footage will be with the Scarlet?
 
So you don't want a small camera then. Why are you even posting on the Scarlet forum? The whole point of Scarlet was to design a "Professional Pocket Camera." You can always bolt extra crap onto the Scarlet to make it bigger and heavier. But you can't shave any size and weight off of an HVX.

Have you ever carried an HVX around in a large jacket pocket? Have you ever stolen shots in public with an HVX without attracting unwanted attention?

Besides, with a metal body it's not going to be as light as something like an HV20. And think of how many great movies were shot handheld on a little Bolex.

Well I had hoped that Scarlet would be S16 and have a faster lens or interchangeability, and hence it would make a great student film camera. In such a case it would have been meaningfully beyond what the big guys would deliver, and I would have got it.

Also, you guys can throw around "professional" as much as you want, but what does it mean? It's tough for me to see where "professionals" will choose it instead of another camera. Why is Scarlet not "prosumer"?
 
I'm an aspiring indie, and I'll gladly buy a Scarlet when I can afford to.

Ok, let me analyze the best options I have now for under 10k:

1) EX1 (Nice codec, amazing IQ, 1/2 sensor)
2) Z7 (HDV, decent IQ, 1/3 sensor)
3) Panasonic HMC 150 (AVCHD, IQ? 1/3 sensor)
4) Scarlet (RAW, great for CC, no compression artifcats, 2/3 sensor)

I think Scarlet is the winner. It's the camera that will give me the best results.

It'll give me a shallower DOF than the others, it'll do 120fps at 3K (The best I get from the previous options is 60fps at 720p with the EX1).

So if Scarlet costs 5.000 USD I'd still gladly buy it.

A Scarlet + Letus = 6.500 USD... Same price as the EX1 and will give me far better results.

Maybe the big companies get scared and release something in Early 2009, until then Scarlet is the big winner in its price range.
 
Also, you guys can throw around "professional" as much as you want, but what does it mean? It's tough for me to see where "professionals" will choose it instead of another camera. Why is Scarlet not "prosumer"?

It's a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. If Red calls it "professional" then it's professional. As a professional you can choose to use it or not. But at least it won't be a cheap chunk of plastic with no manual control and tons of useless consumer oriented features.
 
I will be buying one.

I bought the now dead Andromeda back in the day - almost 5,500 dollars when all was said and done....I'm tired of the clunky workflow-guerilla shots are much harder when you have to have an assistant with a computer, and I'm ready for an upgrade. 2009 is a bit later than I wanted but I had figured it would be around then....so unless Panny does something amazing, the Scarlet will be my new toy.

Fixed lens is okay with me - I don't have money for glass. It would have been nice for it to have an SLR mount or something like that, but I'm not complaining. I am concerned about what kind of glass one can get for 3,000, but that's it.
 
Scarlet is going to be the next big "crash cam" - a really professional crash cam. I'd love to get my hands on one - insane.

Count me in the "lens mount options required" crew please, Jim.
 
If Scarlet was 10,000, the concerns over removable lens would be valid. At 5,000 Scarlet would be a great deal even with a fixed lens. At 3,000 I think it is safe to say that Jim is quite insane.

It's all about the dynamic range and RAW recording and that just seems crazy to have even next year for three thousand bucks. And who here thinks that Jim is going to put a piece of junk glass on it? I sure don't. If the images from Red One are any indication of what Scarlet will produce then I'm getting Scarlet to replace my HV20. There is simply no question.
 
The 2/3" is a poor compromise for feature cinema. Wouldn't almost all of the people interested in this Scarlet for $3k be even more interested a better camera for $5k or more.

I very much agree with this and your other points. 3K is not even a format. For me, the perfect baby RED would be:

2K RAW (downsampled from 3K chip perhaps)
35mm-size sensor
ability to use cine or 35mm glass
at least 60fps
$5-7K price range

That's it. Game over. A camera like that would annihilate every prosumer camera out there. And really, are any of those things I listed much more expensive to implement in a scarlet? In fact, I have lowered the resolution and framerates.
 
a 35mm sized sensor at 2k resolution might have better dynamic range than the red 4k 35mm, but then again for $3k, heck, I bought a dvx for more than $3k. No reason for me to argue with these specs. Why do people keep asking for a higher price?
 
That's it. Game over. A camera like that would annihilate every prosumer camera out there. And really, are any of those things I listed much more expensive to implement in a scarlet? In fact, I have lowered the resolution and framerates.

That's exactly my frustration. Here was this huge opportunity that Red had. Jannard got us all so excited-- it's all going to be so huge, you will be blown away. But now we see that all of the folks trying to fine some compromise with the small chip video cameras are still roughly in the same boat. Oh great. . . so now they have 120fps and 3k. . . I think that we figured Red would deal a death blown to the sub-10k indie video camera market, and it just didn't happen.
 
This is my first post, I've been a lurker for some time, but I thought i should give my input (for what it's worth). The specs are perfect as they are. I can't see or understand why people are still bitching about the specs. For F*^k sake people you can't get better then this. You guys are willing to pay more for glass!!!!! Come on, get real, better glass ain't gonna do S*IT for you. 99 percent of indie films shot with pro glass on super 16mm have never got distribution or even been seen in a movie theater. If you ask for interchangeable lens, you'll be paying more money for it and it WON"T help you, ask all those indie guys on IMDB that used pro glass. So like Redman said, why in God's name are people asking for higher prices for feature that aren't gonna do anything for them??
 
I'm an aspiring indie, and I'll gladly buy a Scarlet when I can afford to.

Ok, let me analyze the best options I have now for under 10k:

1) EX1 (Nice codec, amazing IQ, 1/2 sensor)
2) Z7 (HDV, decent IQ, 1/3 sensor)
3) Panasonic HMC 150 (AVCHD, IQ? 1/3 sensor)
4) Scarlet (RAW, great for CC, no compression artifcats, 2/3 sensor)

I think Scarlet is the winner.


See, I agree with you. This just changed the entire landscape for me. As I waited for the unveiling of Scarlet. Here came sony's EX-3. Nice improvement over the EX-1 for sure with all of the things a filmmaker wants. $10k price tage.

Now comes Scarlet. And, as you just pointed out this is absolutely a tremendous offering.

If this is what I think it is. I'll be spending under a $1k to buy the HV30 and get the lenses and glass ready for a purchase of Scarlet.
 
I think maybe i see Scarlet a little differently than most here. I'm solely looking for a cheap camera that looks great and can help me tell the story i'm trying to tell. To be honest, i wish i knew more of what the technical jargon means. Can make a movie with this camera or not? It seems like a lot of people here think it's not possible.
 
This is my first post, I've been a lurker for some time, but I thought i should give my input (for what it's worth). The specs are perfect as they are. I can't see or understand why people are still bitching about the specs. For F*^k sake people you can't get better then this. You guys are willing to pay more for glass!!!!! Come on, get real, better glass ain't gonna do S*IT for you. 99 percent of indie films shot with pro glass on super 16mm have never got distribution or even been seen in a movie theater. If you ask for interchangeable lens, you'll be paying more money for it and it WON"T help you, ask all those indie guys on IMDB that used pro glass. So like Redman said, why in God's name are people asking for higher prices for feature that aren't gonna do anything for them??

Well, thanks for your thoughts.
No one's bitching - just asking.

And if you think that having lens options is a bad thing - more power to you.

Why must nearly everything on this board revolve around cine or indie ? Some of us may actually want to do stuff for broadcast - hell it's all about options.

If Jim decides it's gotta be a fixed lens at release, then that's fine with me. that's what Scarlet is and will be - but every regular here saw what happened during the development with Red One and many requests were fulfilled.
 
That's exactly my frustration. Here was this huge opportunity that Red had. Jannard got us all so excited-- it's all going to be so huge, you will be blown away. But now we see that all of the folks trying to fine some compromise with the small chip video cameras are still roughly in the same boat. Oh great. . . so now they have 120fps and 3k. . . I think that we figured Red would deal a death blown to the sub-10k indie video camera market, and it just didn't happen.


the cheapest 2/3 sensor camera on the market right now is about 40k. so you're getting this , plus great glass, plus redcode raw , 120fps with 180 burst. wifi remote, brand new sensor with better DR and it records to cheap CF Cards for $3k. you must be nuts. attack of the clones was shot on a 2/3 sensor and that looked pretty damn good. pity bout the crap story but it did look great
 
Back
Top