Scarlet/Epic Stills RAW integration

[Ryan Patch]

So, as we begin thinking more about how Scarlet/Epic is going to be integrated into our lives, more and more questions keep coming up to me about stills. Specifically what format they will be in, and how I'm going to be able to edit them.

RED was able to get away with sending us to redcine, redalert, etc for the cinema because the whole idea was so new, but to be perfectly honest, I want the stills to integrate into my existing still workflow.

Specifically, for the DSMC to be a useful tool to a pro photographer, I need the stills to be shot into a RAW format that can be converted to DNG format, so I can catalog, manage and edit in Lightroom or Aperature. I just know that if I'm forced to process my DSMC photos in a new application like a RedPhoto or something like that will be a deal breaker for me - I want the R3D Still data to be able to be read and modified by the adobe raw module. Is this in the works?

 

[Tom Lowe]

On a slightly different but semi-related topic: I assume there will not be a mechanical shutter for the Epic RAW still frames(?), so what will the longest shutter speed be? 30 seconds? 5 seconds? 1 second?

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

can't RED add a DNG still capture format recording on board.. so, you have the choice to shoot R3D stills or DNG stills?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Why would you need DNG support onboard? Sounds like a simple RAW to RAW post conversion tool to me. I also want to assume that Adobe Camera RAW and Apple will probably support R3DRAW stills format natively too.

 

[Ralph B.]

I'd be shocked and amazed if RED had anything other than a still .R3D coming out of the camera. I would agree with Jeff that a simple RAW to RAW post conversion tool by ADOBE and Apple is something we'll probably see within a few weeks of seeing the new cameras.

I think this is going to be something that's rather seamless in Lightroom and Aperture, although I do believe you will be able to do some magic in some RED software (HDR still stuff maybe).

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

Why would you need DNG support onboard?

to reduce hours of post processing those images..

well, I think in the beginning Cineform introduced a RAW to RAW converter from .R3D to Cineform RAW avi or quicktime.. what happened next? RED rejected the case and cineform stopped releasing that tool.. then when RED sdk was out it never output raw of any format.. then why would RED now accept third party RAW to RAW conversion tool for for stills? and not for motion..
I don't know of course what will happen.. maybe a third party plug-in for this apps (lightroom, aperture) will be from the sauce of RED sdk.. that will output RGB to the application with RED raw conversion settings window as the case with .r3d files now..
maybe there will be full support in this apps.. maybe REDs new still app will rule all other apps..

 

[David Swan]

From what I've gathered, and I may be wrong here, the cams will record a still version of r3d, which, respectfully, is not Raw in the sense that stlls people know, eg CR2, DNG or NEFF, but a lossy compressed pseudo-raw.
I think die-hard stills people will want a true lossless raw format, and DNG is the most logical open format.
Dave

 

[Eric Haase]

I hope we don't have to jump through hoops to integrate whatever stills come out of Epic/Scarlet into existing post workflows. Seems like it would be in RED's best interest to make it as easy as possible for people to use existing and proven software light Aperture or Lightroom to work with images coming out of Epic.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I disagree Eric. I don't think it's in RED's best interest to make sure the stills fit into existing and proven workflows. Quite the opposite in fact.

However, it is in *our* best interest. The users.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

to reduce hours of post processing those images..

well, I think in the beginning Cineform introduced a RAW to RAW converter from .R3D to Cineform RAW avi or quicktime.. what happened next? RED rejected the case and cineform stopped releasing that tool.. then when RED sdk was out it never output raw of any format.. then why would RED now accept third party RAW to RAW conversion tool for for stills? and not for motion..

The old cineform RAW converter was pulled because RED has so far not approved of anyone else's debayer process for RED images and their licensing only allows for accessing the R3D data via the SDK.

As of right now, we don't have any specifics on how the new cameras will record stills. But I see a lot of people making wild ass guesses. It's been said that it will be a form of REDCODE RAW. And I would assume that stills will have far less compression or even an option of uncompressed.

I find it really funny that people like to think of REDCODE as some sort of pseudo-RAW and that other RAW formats like CR2 and NEF are anything better. In fact, in the case of both CR2 and NEF, they receive more pre-processing in camera than REDCODE does. But hey, we can all have our opinions I guess.

I don't know of course what will happen.. maybe a third party plug-in for this apps (lightroom, aperture) will be from the sauce of RED sdk.. that will output RGB to the application with RED raw conversion settings window as the case with .r3d files now..
maybe there will be full support in this apps.. maybe REDs new still app will rule all other apps..

Of course, that's all possible. I also find it highly likely that Apple, Adobe Camera Raw and others will just support RED RAW stills format, just as there is currently support for CR2 and NEF. ...And even that sometimes takes time. We're still wating for ACR and Apple to support CR2 from the 7D.

But as for my comment above, I don't see any advantage for RED to offer onboard support for DNG RAW. For the same reasons Nikon and Canon don't offer such functionality onboard. But to have DNG RAW conversion or extraction as a feature within upcoming RED tools makes perfect sense...

 

[Eric Haase]

I disagree Eric. I don't think it's in RED's best interest to make sure the stills fit into existing and proven workflows. Quite the opposite in fact.

However, it is in *our* best interest. The users.

I think it's in their best interest if they want to attract still photographers who already use certain post tools and shoot Canon, Nikon, etc. In my opinion, the simpler it is and the easier it "just works" with an existing pipeline, the more likely it is to get quickly adopted. I felt a lot of resistance from post production to adopt RED because the post workflow was "too complicated" or a "hassle." People will generally stick with what they know, for better or worse, especially if what they know is easier. I think RED is trying to address some of these issues with simpler exposure tools, more education, and simpler, clearer post workflows. I'm just hoping that the stills mode format can play nice with existing tools without a lot of workarounds.

 

[Ryan Patch]

Yes, all i'm asking for is that RED make the R3D still format available and open to people like Adobe and Apple, so we can convert to DNG and do adjustments to photos in the workflow that pro photographers already have.