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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet Dragon and HDRx

Tony Reale

Tony Reale

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Hey everybody,

Long time observer, first time poster. I'm considering a Scarlet and there are several things that are making me lean towards the Dragon. My latest camera has been the FS700/O7Q which I plan to keep for high speed. Aside from the improvements in DR, IR, compression, etc., the Scarlet Dragon has much better frame rate options. In 5K it can shoot up to 48fps which of course would support HDRx at 24fps...something you'd have to drop down to 3K for the Scarlet X.

How often do you use HDRx and is it something to consider when choosing between the MX and Dragon?

Thanks.
 
You likely won't use HDRx as much as you think. It chews through twice as much data/REDmags, and the dual-shutterspeed causes just enough artifacting to make it not useable in a lot of scenarios.

Honestly, the price difference is pretty huge -- ~$7500 for ScarletX or $14500 for ScarletD and that's just the brain... The thing is, the FS700 + O7Q is 4k/raw, right? That kind of rules out a lot of Scarlet-X's advantages (especially if you plan on keeping it, and especially if you've already got it kitted out). So I guess the real question is, is ScarletD at $14500 within your budget? Also bare in mind, it'll likely be closer to $20k before you're decently shootable (with enough of everything to make it through the day).
 
Don't forget that the SCARLET DRAGON forces the use of higher compression than EPIC DRAGON at a given frame rate. The amount of compression difference increases as the frame rates go up.

I have both the SCARLET and EPIC DRAGONs, and while the SCARLET DRAGON is great for shooting 5K at 24fps and a reasonable compression rate (8:1), compression goes way up, or resolution goes way down in order to access HFR, HDRx, etc. Technically, SCARLET can do some of these things, but it does not kill it, the way EPIC does. As such, its a great 2nd or 3rd camera in the sweet spot of 24fps at 5K, but as you venture into more exotic territories, it will look decidedly compromised compared to EPIC DRAGON.

I will second the notion that HDRx is in no way a substitute for a lighting budget. I do believe that one can discover special cases in which it works well, but (1) you probably want the power of EPIC capturing those frames with decent compression, and (2) it takes some real skill to translate 20+ stops of DR into an image that looks good on a monitor.
 
Totally agree with Mike and Michael. I thought when we got the Scarlet (late 2012) that we would use the HDRX quite a bit. In reality we rarely use it. We also have an FS700 (although we don't have the ODSY 7Q). If I had to chime in, this is probably not what you want to hear, my advice would be; don't buy the Scarlet Dragon and save up for the Epic Dragon. While the Scarlet Dragon is a step up from what you have got - you are not miles out of the ball park with your existing set up. I have a feeling that if you do get the scarlet dragon, you might be slightly underwhelmed.

My own experience, and we do have multiple cameras (Scarlet, Sony F5, FS700, Canon C100, 5D Mark 3, 7D, 60Ds) is that once you use the Red Scarlet Dragon, you will keep wishing for that little extra that only the Epic dragon will be able to give you. I can clearly tell the difference between Scarlet and Epic footage. If you do a bit of high speed shooting the difference at the same frame rate, in my opinion, is clear as day. And I suspect it will be the same with Scarlet dragon/ epic dragon as well.

I apologise if this diatribe takes you off on a tangent, but with your existing set up, I believe the Scarlet Dragon might leave you feeling a bit... "yeah I've got it but this isn't miles away from what I already had." the Epic dragon however is a different matter altogether.

But at the end of the day it all depends on what you will be shooting, how your crew works and your post workflow.
 
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Thanks for all the feedback. Much appreciated.

I've really enjoyed what the O7Q has changed my FS700 into, but there are a few things that had me considering the Dragon: 16+ stops of DR, higher compression in RAW (on a 256 GB SSD, I get 12 minutes of 4K RAW in CinemaDNG), and frankly the familiarity of the name RED for some clients we are pursuing. The debate for me was would it be enough of a jump to justify the investment. The more I looked at the Scarlet MX, the less I felt like it was an improvement. Dragon seemed more like a step up but at more of a cost.

At this point, I'm leaning on sticking with my FS700 system until we get a big push for RED or I find myself drowning in hard drives from CinemaDNG.
 
What about spending a few/couple $1000s buying more hard drives? client wise, I also think the Epic Dragon would impress your clients a whole lot more (thats is if they know the difference). In addition, the Epic Dragon would give you rental options.
 
Tony Reale said:
Thanks for all the feedback. Much appreciated.

I've really enjoyed what the O7Q has changed my FS700 into, but there are a few things that had me considering the Dragon: 16+ stops of DR, higher compression in RAW (on a 256 GB SSD, I get 12 minutes of 4K RAW in CinemaDNG), and frankly the familiarity of the name RED for some clients we are pursuing. The debate for me was would it be enough of a jump to justify the investment. The more I looked at the Scarlet MX, the less I felt like it was an improvement. Dragon seemed more like a step up but at more of a cost.

At this point, I'm leaning on sticking with my FS700 system until we get a big push for RED or I find myself drowning in hard drives from CinemaDNG.
Click to expand...

In addition to EPIC and SCARLET DRAGONs, I also have BMCC, a GH4, and some EOS 5D3s. We've already talked about how large the step up is from SCARLET to EPIC, but let me also say this: the step up from the BMCC to the SCARLET DRAGON is like upgrading from a baloney sandwich to a dry-aged prime rib dinner. Its true that SCARLET DRAGON does not have the bells and whistles and all-out specs of the EPIC, but for straight-ahead shooting (normal frame rates, "normal" DR, modest compression), the SCARLET DRAGON's color quality alone is such a huge jump that I now regret spending the money I did evaluating lesser cameras. But that's how I learn.
 
Tony Reale said:
Thanks for all the feedback. Much appreciated.

I've really enjoyed what the O7Q has changed my FS700 into, but there are a few things that had me considering the Dragon: 16+ stops of DR, higher compression in RAW (on a 256 GB SSD, I get 12 minutes of 4K RAW in CinemaDNG), and frankly the familiarity of the name RED for some clients we are pursuing. The debate for me was would it be enough of a jump to justify the investment. The more I looked at the Scarlet MX, the less I felt like it was an improvement. Dragon seemed more like a step up but at more of a cost.

At this point, I'm leaning on sticking with my FS700 system until we get a big push for RED or I find myself drowning in hard drives from CinemaDNG.
Click to expand...

What you gain with REDcode compression and recording times, you lose in the cost of REDmags. Sure, a single 240GB REDmag can hold almost an hour of 5k/24 ScarletDragon footage, but a a single 240GB REDmag also costs $1450 (plus shipping)!!! With that cash, you could buy SIX over the counter 256GB SSDs at your local Best Buy for your O7Q (which is about ~75mins rec-time). I know you'll be in a sea of SSDs, but value-wise, it *may* not make sense to go Scarlet-D unless you're losing clients to RED shooters... And even then, is it $20k worth of clients? Probably not.

As far as name recognition, how is RED any more recognized than Sony?
 
Mike P. said:
The thing is, the FS700 + O7Q is 4k/raw, right? That kind of rules out a lot of Scarlet-X's advantages (especially if you plan on keeping it, and especially if you've already got it kitted out).
Click to expand...

On paper - and everyone has their own opinions but you guys really shove Mysterium-X under the bus. The images that come off that sensor are gorgeous. For my dollars way and far above anything coming out of the Sony camp sans F35/65.

Also working with REDCODE is a dream.
 
Tony, im exactly in the same position owning a fs700 + Odyssey 7q and wanting to upgrade to scarlet dragon.
i shot a couple of projects in 2k raw, but the scaling is horrible, and 4k doesn't make sense with 2x 256gig ssds.
and the base iso of 2000iso is really noisy on the sony raw output, so i guess the new olpf of the scarlet dragon will be fine.

i also think it will be more attractive for production companies and directors working with a red, then the odyssey setup.

The 50p or 48p in 5k are extremely important for me. Can anyone tell me the compression rate i get on the dragon scarlet @ 5k 48fps?

julianholzwarth.com
 
Just two points,
1
For time-lapse, HDRX is fantastic, on Scarlet or Epic, MX or Dragon - either way.
2
For VFX work, especially for camera tracking: it might be sometimes great to have less motion blur from the X-Track -- for much better results.
.
HDRX -- I don't want to miss it.
 
Scarlet, epic or FS700...

Scarlet, epic or FS700...

I had the exact setup you have now. The FS700+7Q. I now shoot on the Scarlet Dragon... To me there is a big difference. I noticed right away. To be perfectly frank...all this talk of compression and how the epic is so much better then the scarlet and so on only really depends on what your output is. I work in the film industry and have for 13 years now. I'm friends with world class DOP's and have had many discussion with them about which camera for which job. ...This is what i've learned. Don't get caught up in all this chatter about this is better then that and this compression is better then that one and so on... find what is right for you, your clients and your work flow. People are impressed with what and how you shoot it. Impress them with what you can do with your skills. If you look at my demo on my website i've shot some footage on there with $2000 cameras and guess what...i blew my clients minds! If you are shooting on RED are you shooting on one of the worlds best cameras. Be it Scarlet or Epic...it's a win either way. Leave the data bickering to those are who not out in the field shooting magic. I'll tell you what...the demo on my website was shot with 4 different cameras...I dare anyone to watch it and tell me what clips were shot with what camera....i bet everyone gets it wrong. To end this rant this is what i have to say. Base your camera buy on what your output is and if you have the post production gear to handle 6K. Ever studios don't shoot 6K. I'm actually on a film now and they are shooting it 4K 5:1.

www.triple9ine.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1575227
 
When I bought my Scarlet in Jan. 2013, I expected to use HDRx a hell of a lot...the truth is, the built in DR is so good that you'll barely use it.

I'm also a long time current and past owner of Sony cams; EX1, FS-100, F3, A7S (currently own one), and I have a buddy who's used his FS-700 on a number of my Scarlet shoots. Scarlet MX simply looks more professional than any of those Sony cams. I don't own a Scarlet any more (had to sell because I'm currently doing post on a feature), but I sure as hell hope I can shoot my next one on Scarlet (MX or Dragon) over A7S + Shogun and/or FS-700 + O7Q. For best bang for your buck, look into a ready-to-shoot used package from a trusted fellow Reduser.
 
About Dragon's DR, I think pretty much everyone by now stablished Dragon as 14 stops.
Same as Alexa. Same as Sony F5/F55 and new pana varicam 35.
It seems nowadays 14 stops are pretty standart.
Great times.
 
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