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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet Dragon ANA

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Matthew Riggieri

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@Jared and @Brett

Hey Guys, When I received my Scarlet Dragon, just last week, the anamorphic mode was unlocked and working on the scarlet on 5.1.50. When I upgraded to 5.1.51, the anamorphic mode disappeared. What is up with that? I guess I will just have to keep 5.1.50 in my back pocket, in case i need to shoot Anamorphic.

I think not allowing anamorphic really hampers the scarlet more than need be. I mean, I own an EPIC, it will be upgraded to dragon, and the scarlet is a perfect B camera for it. I understand the need to differentiate the products, but you have already lowered the compression ration /data rate on the Scarlet, do you really need to take away Anamorphic. It doesn't stop anyone from using it in anamorphic with an external monitor. AND I KNOW IT IS JUST A SOFTWARE DISABLE NOW.

Just something to think about.
 
Do you really think they took away to hamper the performance of the Scarlet Dragon? :huh:

(BTW - it's Jarred.)
 
matthew, can you check under resolution tab, and then hit the advanced tab or custom tab, then edit your resolutions? this is how it is on epic dragon to get ana on newest beta. Let me know if that works.
 
Ran out of horsepower... Scarlet Dragon can record Anamorphic but can't safely de-squeeze the monitor path like the Epic Dragon can with the faster chips. We were flirting with danger on the last build so dialed it back. This is one of the things we hope to eventually bring back as we optimize... no promises though as there usually are other slightly more important things that fill those holes back up as soon as we make them.
 
Jarred Land said:
Ran out of horsepower... Scarlet Dragon can record Anamorphic but can't safely de-squeeze the monitor path like the Epic Dragon can with the faster chips. We were flirting with danger on the last build so dialed it back. This is one of the things we hope to eventually bring back as we optimize... no promises though as there usually are other slightly more important things that fill those holes back up as soon as we make them.
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Jarred - for those that insist - could you enable the ANA mode without the live de-squeeze? This way they will get R3D's with the proper meta-data and many monitors these days have the desqueeze function with HW...

:sifone: Peter
 
Very interested in this, is it possible to shoot Scarlet Dragon ANA at all? At what max fps and resolution?
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Very interested in this, is it possible to shoot Scarlet Dragon ANA at all? At what max fps and resolution?
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Working on what those numbers are. Even though you think you are recording a smaller frame the sensor speed is based on height... which shooting anamorphic wants as much as possible.
 
Looking forward to those numbers, I understand that I might not be able to shoot higher fps in ANA mode but it would be awesome to have ANA ability, gives the Scarlet even more value for future projects.
 
Personally, I am looking forward to testing the Letus Anamorphic adapter (although I don't have a Dragon); shooting the full 4K and 5K frame and then de-squeezing in post. It's a 1.33 squeeze so I don't think it will be that strange to monitor.
 
I gotta say this is a bit disappointing. It def tips the scale to if/when I upgrade it will be to epic mx and then to dragon
 
Ryan - unless you have invested and already own a set of anamorphic glass - shooting ANA is a mute point. We have analysed this in another thread long time ago and with the native 2:1 aspect ratio of the sensor you are always better off shooting the max width - you will end up with "more pixels" in your digi-neg...
We have just completed a commercial shoot for a Swedish production using the new Master Anamorphics (insisted upon by the DP). When after half a day of shooting we were still on the same 256GB mag - the producer (familiar with the RED and the workflow) asked me how is this possible, he was expecting a lot more data by then.
I had to explain him that shooting ANA you are using a much smaller portion of the sensor and the horizontal gain is "artificial" - it's like scaling up your footage, but only in one direction. No, thank you...
Needless to say - he did not realise that and was not too happy about it.

ANA makes sense on 35mm film - where it was designed to maximize the use of the available exposable area on the film neg - which is the exact opposite of the modern d-cinema sensors.
I know folks will pull the "we love the horizontal flares and oval bokeh" card. Good for them...
Until RED comes up with 4:3 sensor (which they might for the medium format gen) - I personally won't shoot anamorphics...

Ultimately - you can always shoot ANA lenses on the RED even without the ANA mode. You will actually end up with some meat on the sides to help with fixes in post...

:sifone: Peter
 
I have two DRAGONs, an EPIC and a SCARLET. With a mini-mag media, the EPIC DRAGON slays the SCARLET in terms of compression ratios, frame rates, and max resolution. It is a staggering difference. On the other hand--and this is why I bought the SCARLET--when you start doing multi-camera shoots, you don't necessarily need all the tricks of the "A" camera in the "B" camera. 5K at 8:1 24p with DRAGONcolor and RG4 can be a beautiful thing. It's not 5K at 3:1 24p. It's not 6K at 4:1 24p. But I'm not sure I *want* to shoot those low, low, low compression rates for my principal type of shoot, which is collecting long-form documentary footage. And if I am shooting mostly at REDCODE 8:1 to put more hours into each card, and if I have lenses that don't cover 6K FF anyway, why not save a few bucks and have a camera whose limitations are seamlessly hidden by larger production goals?

If I were getting only one camera, it would be an EPIC DRAGON, no ifs ands or buts. Because even though I will mostly shoot 5K @ 8:1 anyway, having the option to shoot higher frame rates, larger frame sizes, or lower compression rates is valuable--and useful for some part of almost every project. But on the whole, and playing the averages, SCARLET is a wonderful low-cost solution to double my camera coverage.

I'm still kinda ambivalent about precisely where the SCARLET ended up, performance-wise. But I also know that if it's really a problem, I can rent or buy another EPIC and use the SCARLET as a "C" camera. And then I can sell all the other crap I own that doesn't deserve to shoot next to any DRAGON in the first place ;-P
 
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ANA makes sense on 35mm film - where it was designed to maximize the use of the available exposable area on the film neg - which is the exact opposite of the modern d-cinema sensors.
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I'm not shooting anamorphic because of some gain in image resolution, I'm shooting anamorphic because of the characteristics of the lenses. A wide 35mm anamorphic lens is radically different from a normal 35mm. So, having the ability to shoot anamorphic on the Scarlet Dragon is essential for some projects.

If I were getting only one camera, it would be an EPIC DRAGON
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Of course... but then again it costs A LOT more than the Scarlet Dragon. I would never be able to afford the Epic Dragon, I'm barely able to afford the Scarlet Dragon, so in my opinion the market is not for those who can afford the Epic.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
I'm not shooting anamorphic because of some gain in image resolution, I'm shooting anamorphic because of the characteristics of the lenses. A wide 35mm anamorphic lens is radically different from a normal 35mm. So, having the ability to shoot anamorphic on the Scarlet Dragon is essential for some projects.
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You are comparing apples to oranges. 35mm ANA (2x) should be compared with 18mm "normal", not a 35mm...
I highly recommend you try hooting the 35mm ANA in ANA res and then shoot 18mm FF.
Yes - as I have said I am aware of the optical differences in ANA glass, especially the horizontal flares and oval bokeh - but these in mo own book do not justify the loss of image quality.
It makes sense if you already own a set. But then again - you can always shoot ANA without having the ANA mode enabled. People have been doing so for ages with the various front-element adapters...
To each their own - I was just pointing out the obvious - and yet frequently ignored issue about the loss of image quality when shooting ANA on digital. This is opposite to the IQ gain you get on film...

:sifone: Peter
 
You are comparing apples to oranges. 35mm ANA (2x) should be compared with 18mm "normal", not a 35mm...
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I was off on the mathematics, but to specify I meant that a wide lens is not the same spherical lens in it's characteristics. You can be closer to an actor with a wide anamorphic lens and still be without distortion. You can't get the same optical characteristics with a spherical because it's not just about the format and field of view, it's what the anamorphic process does to the image. I understand that it's a digital blowup when stretching the pixels, but when making feature films I really like the emotional value of the lens characteristics more then having more pixels. And shooting at 5K or on the Epic at 6K you still have a lot of resolution for a 4K mastering. And we just have to face it, UHD will be the resolution for a long long time, people won't jump to 8K, it will not be as viable an option to the common man as UHD/4K.

The thing is that I'm not talking about the technical aspect of ANA, there isn't any reason to shoot ANA today because technically it was meant to squeeze in more image on each 35mm fame. But the result is that all those favorite movies from the old days have a very special look and it's not just the squeezed bokeh, it's the entire look of the image, especially in wide angles. So, some people, including me, like this look, it's more cinematic then spherical. It's the whole reason that Abrams overused those lens flares in Star Trek. They wouldn't look the same on spherical lenses.

If we can shoot 5K Ana, then the UHD mastering will have a great look, even though you loose some pixels. Most people won't see any degration in quality.

People also forget that resolution is only seen when objects are still and in focus. Everything out of focus doesn't gain anything in resolution and if they are in focus they need to be still, otherwise the motion blur will render higher resolution obsolete. So, most films have motion all the time and most films have a lot of bokeh. Most tests of 4K material I've seen, especially with all the new cameras at NAB is mostly tripod-shots of cities and landscape... images almost no one shoots in filmmaking. They are just transitional shots. Most of the time you film people, faces with backgrounds blurred. For most movies, the image resolution "nerdisity" is totally unnecessary. We can absolutely shoot ANA and no one will notice the resolution difference, only the difference in lens characteristics.

There's a line that has to be drawn where image technology becomes too technical and emotion is lost. I'm interested in technology as long as it supports the emotional imagery that I'm after. If it gives me the right colors, enough detail and a look that supports the vision I have as a filmmaker it's enough. If I can get a good looking UHD image with ANA, it's enough.


My only concern is that we can't shoot ANA with higher framerates, but are you saying that we can shoot in "normal" mode but use a monitor that desqueeze the image? So if I shoot 5K on a Scarlet Dragon I can reach up to 48 fps and still be able to shoot ANA? That's all I need to know :)
 
Vincent Larsson said:
Do we have any compression ratios on the latest build?

Scarlet-D in 5K FF doesn't even come up to PAL 25fps standard... at least not in 8:1, doesn't mention anything regarding 5K FF and 48fps but I guess it will come with a higher compression ratio.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/red_3/downloads/manuals/DSMC_Operation_Guide_v5.1_Rev-H.pdf
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You should read http://s3.amazonaws.com/red_3/downloads/manuals/RED_DSMC_Media_Operation_Guide_Rev-E.pdf

There you will learn that at 25fps SCARLET DRAGON can do 5K @ 9:1, 5K 2:1 and HD @ 8:1, and 5K WS @ 7:1

At 48fps it can do 5K and 5K 2:1 at 16:1, 5K WS @ 13:1, and 5K HD @ 15:1

All that data is from Rev E of the Media Ops Guide.
 
Thanks for the reply Michael!

One thing that would be nice though is if SCARLET DRAGON would do 2.5K like the EPIC DRAGON, then S16-glass would be a perfect match.
 
I agree, we should be able to get 2.5K. I have thrown up my s16 Zooms (Canon 8-64 and 11.5-138) and they just almost cover 3KHD. With a 90" frame crop, they fully cover.
 
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