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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet and F3 pointed at the same scene. Footage inside.

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Timur Civan

Timur Civan

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For anyone wondering how they stack up. I think they could cut easily with each other in a 1080/2k end product. 4k product.... not so much.....

Definitely a case of the right tool for the job. I am finding that im using the RED for commercial work more and more, but switching to F3 for lowbudget films. The sensitivity really makes up for a lack of lighting resources. The larget budget films however are on RED. mainly because they have the money for the workflow.

Check it out....

http://timurcivan.blogspot.com/2012/04/examination-of-sony-f3-and-red-scarlet.html
 
Very interesting Timur. Thanks. I direct/produce a lot of doc shoots for short-form, and we're still trying to figure out that workflow on the Scarlet. It was so easy on DSLR, and I have DP friends who love doc work on the F3!

The Scarlet's doc limitations are certainly:

1) Audio workflow not as simple as F3
2) Media Cost. To record 8hrs of doc footage on the Scarlet w/out a download, you need 4 x 256 cards, which is like 10k.

Once the Pix240 can record 1080p off the scarlet w/out the black bars, would you consider the Scarlet for more doc work?
 
The day the scarlet records with no balck bars will be a great day! But iwould not use it for Doc. Think about it, the camera is 50w draw. By the time you power the Pix, the scarlet, etc, the size is huge, and the power requirement will need a battery change every 40 min.

I believe the EX1 is still the best doc camera, with the 5DmkII as a close second. documentary is a marathon of efficiency. Cinema is a power hog.
 
Bob Gundu said:
Samurai is the clear winner for energy efficiency :-)
Click to expand...

Yeah a good friend of mine, Ed David, loves the Samurai on his F3 for this very reason: he can Run N' Gun for 5 hours he says w/out a battery change.

This could be a very interesting recorder on the Scarlet, once the black bar situation gets fixed (and when the meta-data info matches up with the R3D's).

However, the XLR inputs and Sound Devices Pre-Amps on the 240 are AWESOME. Another great audio cheat for the Scarlet, for Studio work. You can walk off set with perfect audio and MXF proxies of your shoot, and edit instantly.
 
Hey Timur,
Thanks for the great test. It's great to see these two camera side by side. I'm surprised you give the Sony the nod for dynamic range. The screen of the cell phone is clearly blown on the sony but has a touch more detail on the Scarlet. I bet you could CC the raw to give even more highlight detail.
Thanks for taking the time to post.
Sam
 
Hello Tim,

Thanks for you test. Strange colors you get from the Scarlet. I've never had any trouble with the magenta image.

"Case in point, in the skin tone test you just watched, the color of the wall in the F3 footage is completely accurate. Thats exactly what my wall looks like, but looks quite magenta in the RED footage. If I fight the magenta with a bit of green, the skin tone gets thrown out of whack. This green/magenta balancing act is a definite pitfall of the RED, even with REDColor3."


Patrick.
 
F3 is more noisy than Scarlet-X that even can be visible on Vimeo HD.

Also I'm surprised here with a lack of the base knowledge with shooting RED, Scarlet or Epic.

Taken from RECON:

2. Set White Balance BEFORE converting to RGB space for grading.
...

People who complain about RED's color usually find out that they have made this tactical error.

The easiest thing to do is hit AWB in camera and/or shoot a white or grey card in the scene

and hit it with the WB tool in REDCINE-X or other app that uses the SDK.


Scarlet is not a WYSIWYG video camera like a F3 or C300 (even with CameraLogs).

Maybe you should once try out with using TrueLight that's FilmLight's product and then to compare REDLogFilm with S-Log from F3.
 
Timur Civan said:
For anyone wondering how they stack up. I think they could cut easily with each other in a 1080/2k end product. 4k product.... not so much.....

Definitely a case of the right tool for the job. I am finding that im using the RED for commercial work more and more, but switching to F3 for lowbudget films. The sensitivity really makes up for a lack of lighting resources. The larget budget films however are on RED. mainly because they have the money for the workflow.

Check it out....

http://timurcivan.blogspot.com/2012/04/examination-of-sony-f3-and-red-scarlet.html
Click to expand...

Thanks Timur.

It's interesting you rate the Epic/Scarlet at 320 ISO and 12 stops. I've noticed that people that treat the camera within those parameters are getting the best results out of it, you included.

Best, Erich
 
Sam Edwards said:
Hey Timur,
Thanks for the great test. It's great to see these two camera side by side. I'm surprised you give the Sony the nod for dynamic range. The screen of the cell phone is clearly blown on the sony but has a touch more detail on the Scarlet. I bet you could CC the raw to give even more highlight detail.
Thanks for taking the time to post.
Sam
Click to expand...

I did everything i could to make the scarlet look as good as possible. The simple fact is the F3 has more range and accurate color. Def watch it on a sscreen that isnt a phone.

I will shoot something else and put up a sLog tiff and a R3d still. So you guys can compare.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
F3 is more noisy than Scarlet-X that even can be visible on Vimeo HD.

Also I'm surprised here with a lack of the base knowledge with shooting RED, Scarlet or Epic.

Taken from RECON:

2. Set White Balance BEFORE converting to RGB space for grading.
...

People who complain about RED's color usually find out that they have made this tactical error.

The easiest thing to do is hit AWB in camera and/or shoot a white or grey card in the scene

and hit it with the WB tool in REDCINE-X or other app that uses the SDK.


Scarlet is not a WYSIWYG video camera like a F3 or C300 (even with CameraLogs).

Maybe you should once try out with using TrueLight that's FilmLight's product and then to compare REDLogFilm with S-Log from F3.
Click to expand...

I will try that workflow, though i dont see why its different than adjusting white balance in RCX with the dropper. Or you could look at the RGB waveforms and make them even.
 
If you know a few post tricks (which no, I will not post my secrets here, you must find your own way) you can get way, way, way more dynamic range out of a Scarlet/Epic/Red One than with an F3.
 
I had a feeling that the orange walls, book and box in the F3 footage were more accurately rendered than in the Scarlet footage.

However, as you point out, your first test was a skin tone test. In that respect, your subject looks better (and healthier) to me in the Scarlet images, albeit at the cost of the orange walls.

Based on skin tones (on my computer screen, at least), the pictures below (when side-by-side) could easily be a comparison of before taking flu medicine and after.

Now, her skin tone in the F3 images may be spot-on as well. There's a lot to be said for accuracy and sometimes that's exactly what we want.

Perhaps the Scarlet, in this instance, is more like that certain lens, vintage microphone or tube amplifier that, while not 100% accurate, adds its own mojo and somehow makes the most important parts better.


timur_civan-f3_vs_scarlet.jpg
 
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There is something going wrong with that scarlet footage. Not sure if it's due to the lens, flaring, IR pollution, an improper white balance or black balance or change of lighting in the scene but compared to the F3 footage SOMETHING is definitely off in the Scarlet scene.

I can categorically state this because if you look at the compared F3 and Scarlet footage on the wide shot, the color of the light coming out of the lamps to the either side of the subject is the same on the right and left. On the scarlet footage the right of screen lamp (to the subjects left) has a considerably stronger magenta hue than the one on the left of screen (subjects righthand side).


I have uploaded a screenshot to illustrate this.

Differing color science wouldn't account for the dramatic differentiation between the lamp on the left and right if they looked the same to the F3...

EDIT - Actually looking at the F3 footage a second time the lamp on the right of screen has a VERY slight magenta cast compared to the left, so it could simply be a color science difference where the RED footage is comparatively boosting the magenta up quite a bit. Would be interested to know what is more accurate to the eye in the scene in terms of those two lamps...
 

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there are two different bulbs in those two lamps, one is a GE Reveal and the other is a standard bulb.

I'm going to reshoot the test from scratch, and try that work flow that Sanjin Suggested from the Recon thread. See if it makes a difference. I have to reshoot it because i trashed the R3D's by accident. Will re upload the file in the video too, reflecting any new findings.

I imagine the RED should perform a bit better in terms of color. IT was very magenta.
 
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