Scarlet and Epic-S the same nor not?

[Pascal Parvex]

According to Wikipedia, the Epic-S has 5K and a $12 000 price tag. Is this the old Scarlet as I have read somewhere, or are those two different products and there will be a 3K Scarlet with mini primes or the like?

 

[Steven Hammer]

No one knows for sure, but these are the products that Red has said (in the past, subject to change) they were looking at producing:

Scarlet Fixed - 3K, fixed lens, supposed to be next to be released now that Epic X is shipping
Scarlet Interchangable - 3K, interchangeable lenses (mini primes for mini PL mount and maybe also a regular PL mount)
Epic-S (used to be Scarlet S35) - 5K, at one time guess-timated to probably cost around $12,000

RED has not talked price on any of these in a long time, so there is no "price tag" and features/prices are all subject to change. Recent posts seem to indicate that more change is on the horizon, so this list could be totally wrong at this point. But I think it's the best we know.

 

[Solomon Nero]

there was one version of the scarlet that had a S35 sensor. It is now in an epic body and has taken the name. Epic-S. But the scarlet fixed, and scarlet interchangeable are still 3k 2/3 sensor, and will be priced lower then Epic-S

 

[Erwin Vanderhoydonks]

Old Scarlet S35 --> New EPIC-S 5k
Scarlet Fixec 8x 3K 2/3" sensor
Scarlet Interchangeble 3K 2/3" sensor

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Old Scarlet S35 --> New EPIC-S 5k
Scarlet Fixec 8x 3K 2/3" sensor
Scarlet Interchangeble 3K 2/3" sensor

That was the latest official information we received some months ago. Given the wording of Jim's recent, somewhat cryptic timeline, Epic-S may or may not exist anymore, or it may have been renamed, and the Scarlet models may not both still exist and may no longer be 3K. Or maybe nothing has changed. Or some of it has changed. Or . . . you get the picture? No one outside Red knows what exactly is in the pipeline.

 

[George Butterfield]

maybe nothing has changed. Or some of it has changed. Or . . . you get the picture?

The battle field is extremely fluid. What will Panasonic and Sony and Canon be producing in one year for Ten Thousand dollars? If you compete with them you must ensure that you are not DOA.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Can someone at RED atleast tell us if we're looking at 2012 or before End of the year 2011? I know "everything changes" , I don't need a camera "right now" I will make sure I have one to shoot. It's not that kind of question. Can you please just give us something. I'm sure many would like to know whether they should save a bit longer rather than having to buy a camera then barter it away at a later day and lose a bit of money on it.

 

[Richard_JP]

Can someone at RED atleast tell us if we're looking at 2012 or before End of the year 2011? I know "everything changes" , I don't need a camera "right now" I will make sure I have one to shoot. It's not that kind of question. Can you please just give us something. I'm sure many would like to know whether they should save a bit longer rather than having to buy a camera then barter it away at a later day and lose a bit of money on it.

+1 Jeffery

I find it strange to be so vocal about a product for so many years and then take a vow of silence just months before the release. It's super worrying. Especially since the silence started just as the Epic shipped. I don't know if this means anything, but it does seem like an odd move.

I'd like to hear something from the RED team. An update so we can all plan around it.

But I guess that this is the wrong thread for this request (and it will fall on deaf ears anyways).

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

I find it strange to be so vocal about a product for so many years and then take a vow of silence just months before the release. It's super worrying.

We really don't know that it is "just months before the release," if by that you mean 3 or 4 months rather than 10, 12, or 15. We don't know anything really, not even whether the items in Jim Jannard's roadmap are in chronological order.

 

[Nathaniel Haban]

The battle field is extremely fluid. What will Panasonic and Sony and Canon be producing in one year for Ten Thousand dollars? If you compete with them you must ensure that you are not DOA.

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't be surprised if after Nov. 3rd - the date of Canon's "Historic Global Announcement" - that we'll get an update on Scarlet as well. It makes sense that they'd want to get a full, clear picture of the entry-level market before finalizing an announcement on pricing or ship dates.

 

[Richard_JP]

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't be surprised if after Nov. 3rd - the date of Canon's "Historic Global Announcement" - that we'll get an update on Scarlet as well. It makes sense that they'd want to get a full, clear picture of the entry-level market before finalizing an announcement on pricing or ship dates.

You really believe that. For how long do you continue to gauge the competition? At some point, it's time to release it. Otherwise, put people out the misery of waiting.

R1 is amazing, Epic looks amazing (however I didn't get to shoot with it yet), the Scarlet is... painfully annoying

I think this one single product has hurt RED more than anything else, and the longer they delay it, the more it will continue to damage the company image.

 

[Richard_JP]

We really don't know that it is "just months before the release," if by that you mean 3 or 4 months rather than 10, 12, or 15. We don't know anything really, not even whether the items in Jim Jannard's roadmap are in chronological order.

Last words from Jim were something like "fall this year." But then, they always say it's roughly another 4-6 months away. I've never heard them say "about another 1-2 years". They could have saved themselves a lot of bashing had they said that some time back.

 

[Nathaniel Haban]

You really believe that. For how long do you continue to gauge the competition? At some point, it's time to release it. Otherwise, put people out the misery of waiting.

R1 is amazing, Epic looks amazing (however I didn't get to shoot with it yet), the Scarlet is... painfully annoying

I think this one single product has hurt RED more than anything else, and the longer they delay it, the more it will continue to damage the company image.

The competition is releasing new equipment. This roughly coincides with when RED is trying to release Scarlet. What's unreasonable from a business perspective about going silent about release dates and price until you know what everyone else is doing?

I guess Scarlet is only "painfully annoying" if you expected it to be out for a while now. I've kind of always guessed that we'd see it by the end of the year. If it's release is dependent on Epic shipping, then maybe that guess isn't too far off. However, if it's July of 2012 before we see it, yeah, you're absolutely right - at that point, my anticipation would start to turn into annoyance.

Don't know about your 3rd statement. For people who have a negative perception of RED, sure, delays only reinforce that. But when it's released, if it's as good as we all hope, I can see people forgiving and forgetting pretty damned quick. Honestly, how many people, once they receive their Scarlet, are going to say: "Okay, I'll shoot with Scarlet, but I'm not going to enjoy it"?

There hasn't been much "Bashing" about it. I think what your seeing, is an anxiety about the future. People want the best camera they can get, and they want to shoot on it now - or, at least very soon. When the future is unknown, that causes a lot of nervousness. I think most of the frustration you see being voiced on here is just a manifestation of that anxiety.

 

[David Rasberry]

Whatever Red does on the S35 side of the map, the 2/3" models will likely remain in the list. In the under 10k prosumer market right now you have a choice of 1/3"-1/2" HD cams with features that are run and gun solo shooter friendly and you have a selection of 4/3 and S35 models that are more crewed production oriented and not particularly easy or convenient to equip for solo operators. There are no 2/3" cameras much under $20k.
Scarlet 2/3" will fill a very big hole in the under $10k market segment for those of us who want both more creative flexibility and the kind of run and gun solo shooter convenience for a broad range ENG/ EFP style productions that this format has always served so well: news, event coverage, documentaries, and yes narrative fictional work too.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

The competition is releasing new equipment. This roughly coincides with when RED is trying to release Scarlet. What's unreasonable from a business perspective about going silent about release dates and price until you know what everyone else is doing?

I guess Scarlet is only "painfully annoying" if you expected it to be out for a while now. I've kind of always guessed that we'd see it by the end of the year. If it's release is dependent on Epic shipping, then maybe that guess isn't too far off. However, if it's July of 2012 before we see it, yeah, you're absolutely right - at that point, my anticipation would start to turn into annoyance.

Don't know about your 3rd statement. For people who have a negative perception of RED, sure, delays only reinforce that. But when it's released, if it's as good as we all hope, I can see people forgiving and forgetting pretty damned quick. Honestly, how many people, once they receive their Scarlet, are going to say: "Okay, I'll shoot with Scarlet, but I'm not going to enjoy it"?

There hasn't been much "Bashing" about it. I think what your seeing, is an anxiety about the future. People want the best camera they can get, and they want to shoot on it now - or, at least very soon. When the future is unknown, that causes a lot of nervousness. I think most of the frustration you see being voiced on here is just a manifestation of that anxiety.

I think the biggest annoyance is not so much the silence of the specs, and time, but the silence of...you have no idea when it will be coming. It could be soon, it could be a year plus no one knows. We all know they've dug themselves in a hole before for saying we anticipate this many months. Well here lies the problem for me and maybe others. I don't want to buy a camera I have to re-sell later and have useless accessories I can't sell/use sitting around. I'll make sure I have a camera to shoot. I'm not saying I need the Scarlet for what I plan/want to shoot. It's not the peanut butter to my jelly. It's a tool, and a tool that requires an investment. All camera gear does. I'm at the point where I need to upgrade what I use around the camera. Some of that will carry over, some won't. Not hearing anything makes me nervous to buy anything for this camera or another one i'd consider simply for overspending on accessories I can't carry over when I upgrade or change platforms. I respect the hard work they do and what they have planned and need to accomplish first but the silence is good in some ways and bad in others.

It really handcuffs me into well If I buy this mattebox can I carry it over? We have no idea. Same with lenses I might want, or buying extra memory, even certain sliders, cranes, dolly's and tripods would require a change. Or maybe it wouldn't. I don't really know. I don't operate on a huge budget, I have other things in life to pay for as do many others. But don't make nearly enough to buy a full Camera kit and then turn around, re-sell it, inevitably lose money on it, then re-buy what I really wanted. And i'm not just talking camera. I'm really talking about the things around the camera and budgets. The silence will put a damper on customers and buyers. It would've been different had the Scarlet been top secret from day 1, but it wasn't and RED followed a path they believed in. Yes I understand things change, but the Epic/module info is all out in the open. Going dark on the Scarlet at this time is rather befuddling. It puts alot of people who have been waiting over on Scarletuser.com, and here in a dark place. Essentially a holding pattern of no knowledge and no idea what to do. If you can afford to buy/re-sell gear then great. I can't afford to lose that money with other things in my life.

I can understand the silence on the fronts of Dragon, 3D Tech, Projectors etc...that isn't really relevant yet. You could argue that for the Scarlet, but when people have planned and put it on there wishlist, not stopping production, just trying to plan and it's been laid out in plane sight than all of a sudden taken away, it really confuses them. I'm sure RED knows best and has all the cards here. It's just hard to make decisions going forward not know what any of us are looking at. I don't know it's a big circle that we always go through and will continue to until it's release. Then again the whole system could be different than before so it still could mean that buying new gear for the anticipation of the Scarlet is a waste. I might see things to much in one way or another but it is just really confusing many as to why there is silence right when we were thinking it was coming. Maybe it gets released tomorrow. Then again like always...everything changes.

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Don't know about your 3rd statement. For people who have a negative perception of RED, sure, delays only reinforce that. But when it's released, if it's as good as we all hope, I can see people forgiving and forgetting pretty damned quick. Honestly, how many people, once they receive their Scarlet, are going to say: "Okay, I'll shoot with Scarlet, but I'm not going to enjoy it"?

With relatively rare exception (e.g., Ikonoskop A-cam dII), none of the new digital-cinema cameras uses the 2/3-inch format, even the offerings priced below $10,000. Plus there have been a significant number of predictions on this forum that Scarlet will be maximally 4K rather than 3K. These predictions are based more on wishful thinking than on any information released by Red. This is a long-winded way of saying that the longer Red delays Scarlet, the less likely a 2/3-inch, 3K camera will be "as good as we all hope."

 

[George Butterfield]

the more it will continue to damage the company image.

Personally I think RED's image (no pun) is the best in the business. This is a crucial year. Let's see where the dust has settled by this time next year.

 

[David Rasberry]

With relatively rare exception (e.g., Ikonoskop A-cam dII), none of the new digital-cinema cameras uses the 2/3-inch format, even the offerings priced below $10,000. Plus there have been a significant number of predictions on this forum that Scarlet will be maximally 4K rather than 3K. These predictions are based more on wishful thinking than on any information released by Red. This is a long-winded way of saying that the longer Red delays Scarlet, the less likely a 2/3-inch, 3K camera will be "as good as we all hope."

If 3k Bayer is good enough for the Alexa and less than 3k Bayer scaled to 1080p is good enough for the FS100 and F3 Sony cameras, it should still be plenty good for a 2/3" Scarlet. Fact is the 2/3" format in HD production cameras mostly running $25k to $50k range and up is still the bread and butter of broadcast production, way more popular in terms of sheer numbers than 35mm anything and likely to remain so in the future. 35mm is an impractical format for many production situations.
Yes 4k is the coming thing, but fact is it is not common yet outside of large commercial theater chains, and still not the predominant format even there. Forget the TV markets and the Web. There aren't even any affordable consumer level true 4k computer displays out yet. It will be at least the normal service life cycle of any of these cameras, 5-7 years, before a high quality 3k raw acquisition camera will begin to look obsolete for many markets.

 

[Ryan Farnes]

If 3k Bayer is good enough for the Alexa and less than 3k Bayer scaled to 1080p is good enough for the FS100 and F3 Sony cameras, it should still be plenty good for a 2/3" Scarlet. Fact is the 2/3" format in HD production cameras mostly running $25k to $50k range and up is still the bread and butter of broadcast production, way more popular in terms of sheer numbers than 35mm anything and likely to remain so in the future. 35mm is an impractical format for many production situations.

Wrong. Beautiful bokeh makes me cry. It is never wrong. As evidenced by CNN's experimentation with it.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/be....King.Previews.NH.Debate.cnn?iref=videosearch


:smilielol5:

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

If 3k Bayer is good enough for the Alexa and less than 3k Bayer scaled to 1080p is good enough for the FS100 and F3 Sony cameras, it should still be plenty good for a 2/3" Scarlet. Fact is the 2/3" format in HD production cameras mostly running $25k to $50k range and up is still the bread and butter of broadcast production, way more popular in terms of sheer numbers than 35mm anything and likely to remain so in the future. 35mm is an impractical format for many production situations.

I personally agree with you, but Red itself is promoting the whole S35 4K thing, possibly to the detriment of Scarlet. And my point is about what I perceive to be the trend: a desire for larger sensors and a growing, if perhaps premature, desire for 4K. It's not about what you or I think may be enough, but overall changes in expectations. And let's face it, by the time Scarlet is released, if it's 2/3-inch 3K, it'll be nearly three years behind Red's original "early 2009" projection. And in that time, Jim Jannard has done quite a lot of hammering away at sub-4K formats.

Yes 4k is the coming thing, but fact is it is not common yet outside of large commercial theater chains, and still not the predominant format even there. Forget the TV markets and the Web. There aren't even any affordable consumer level true 4k computer displays out yet. It will be at least the normal service life cycle of any of these cameras, 5-7 years, before a high quality 3k raw acquisition camera will begin to look obsolete for many markets.

True, but Red is pushing 4K now as a hedge against future obsolescence. Had the Scarlet been released in 2009 it -- and its 3K format -- would've had nearly 3 more years of useful life. Every delay has shortened that and moved it toward the ranks of the obsolescent. Even Sony and, gulp, possibly Canon (we'll see in November) are going 4K, and Panasonic has announce its AVC Ultra formats, up to 4:4:4, 12-bit, 4K, >400-Mbps eye-popping glory.