Scarlet and Dragon...

[Steven Caesare]

obvious consequences: the price to trade the Scarlet for an Epic Dragon is predictably far more expensive than just changing the sensor in the Scarlet brain, which of course we were told was going to be more expensive than the EPIC upgrade.

I believe your error here is in "predicting"prices based on "just changing the sensor". As has already been pointed out, Jarred forewarned that a significant amount of other camera components would also need to be changed out. Even Red didn't know how much, so THEY had no way of predicting the cost, much less you.

the new upgrade path for Scarlet Users is far away from what was initially offered by RED and, unfortunately, far more expensive for obvious reasons already stated above.

This conclusion is based on your faulty premise above.


It's typically more expensive to retrofit new parts in to an existing product then simply install it new from the factory. (The cost for replacing a car engine far exceeds it's line-item cost as part of the new car).

So it's conceivable that even if only half of a Scarlet's boards had to be replaced as part of a Dragon upgrade, the cost to do so may have rivaled the cost to simply buy an Epic new.


I am amazed how many people are assuming things they don't know and make critical comments based on these assumptions I the face of yet another generous offer from Red.

-sc

 

[Scott Crawley]

Guys, they always said that they were trying to figure out how they could make a Scarlet upgrade work and IF it was going to work, that several boards would need to be changed. They never stated it was a sure thing, that board changes would be enough and never committed to any course of action. Too many of us chose to ignore that part.

So now they determined that it is not cost effective and are coming up with another way to get us there... As promised. Scarlet to Dragon is possible and Red will make it happen. All that has changed is that it will not happen inside the box we currently own. To many of us that is just fine as it will bring more features than originally expected. Anyone who was bitching that the Scarlet upgrade would not include all of the Epic frame rates needs not to be fussing now.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Honestly, Steven, I don't think my posts have been about predicting prices as you seem to suggest, but rather about trying to reason (or assume) why I think this new change of plans in the Scarlet upgrade program can be seen with some concern by many Scarlet users, ...

Yet, for all of what you've written, the concern boils down to price, no?

And (editing for brevity, not to change context), this is the conclusion you've drawn:

the new upgrade path for Scarlet Users is far away from what was initially offered by RED and, unfortunately, far more expensive for obvious reasons already stated above...

Would you really care if the price was in the same ballpark to upgrade to Epic as it was to swap out to Dragon & the boards to support it?

-sc

 

[Brian Merlen]

As far as whether the board gets replaced or the whole brain, I don't think that is the issue. I think the issue is a two tiered system is becoming one and some users can't afford to spend for the higher end model within the time table of its release to the public. I think by making this like the M->MX program in the sense that there is no strict time frame you need to meet to get the upgrade would go a far way towards combating the concerns that some Scarlet users will not be able to afford the higher end system within the specific stage should they go for the MX-> Epic kind of an upgrade system that has specific time tables to how and when you must be liquid according to which stage you want to be in...

My premise is as long as everyone can go for the Dragon ride from the Scarlet camp, since Red realizes some of them can't afford to make the leap anytime soon (this is assuming they still aren't liquid when the Dragon debuts), by avoiding time tables it will make it easier on people like yourself that may not have the finances yet to make the leap.

I really doubt this comes down to whether people keep their brain and have parts tinkered with, or if they get a whole new brain. This isn't a cosmetic issue... This is a financial issue, people are weary of getting their ducks in line during this economy. For instance I have health insurance deductibles to meet/copays (watchful waiting don't come cheap), laid off until new contract starts and freelancing as much as I can try to do, my family on back, etc. I myself am weary of being liquid in time should that be part of the criteria, but not much I can do about it other then just keep on keeping on and trying to save my best. Wishing you the best of luck as well with your upgrade financing!

Honestly, Steven, I don't think my posts have been about predicting prices as you seem to suggest, but rather about trying to reason (or assume) why I think this new change of plans in the Scarlet upgrade program can be seen with some concern by many Scarlet users, who had come to "assume", based on RED's announcements in the past year, that their boards were in fact upgradable (at a higher cost than EPIC boards, but upgradable after all). In the first post of this thread, written just a month ago, Mr. Jannard said: "...we are considering how to upgrade Scarlets to the Dragon. There are several boards that need to be changed so the upgrade for Scarlet may be a bit more expensive than the upgrade to EPIC." That was just written a month ago, before Jarred officially announced that this option was no longer viable and, consequently, a trade in program for Scarlet would most likely be offered instead. So my assumption was, as preposterous as it may sound to you, that a trade-in program would be substantially more costly than just changing the boards on the Scarlet. To be clear, though, I am certain that RED are the first to regret not being able to deliver a Scarlet Dragon (for whatever reaason), and I thank them for trying and for offering an alternative path, which is immensely genrous. What other company would do that?



Well, your "amazement" equally amazes me. The notion that upgrading the Scarlet boards (which was the proposed plan until very recently) is probably less costly than a trade in program is not a very preposterous assumption, in my opinion. In my case, I do admit that RED's posts in the past year (including Mr. Jannard's first post in this thread) have led many of us to beileve that the Scarlet-Dragon was possible despite the mentioned difficulties (I mean, really, who wouldn't have?). Now we are told it is not and that's why many have reacted with certain dissapointment. However, just to be clear, I don't think anybody is whining here (although the way you have edited my quotes in your post may unfortunately give this impression). This is an open forum and I really think RED welcomes this kind of feedback, as long as it is done with common sense and respectfully. Hey, as I said before, I will most likely jump into the trade in program and I'm immensely grateful to RED for offering that alternative path. Going back to Mr. Jannard's first post, I am 100% convinced that RED, apart from being a company that needs to do business, is in fact "always thinking about (their) customers..." in ways no other compnay does, and that is why I remain a grateful and happy customer after all.

 

[Abiodun Shote]

Personally I would like to see "an upgrade option" because nobody else provides that. Which is one of the reasons I'm a Red owner and shooter.

......

For now I need to continue to work hard and make smart decisions to raise capital for the upgrade in whatever way I can. If it's outside of my reach when the time comes for some reason I'll be forced to make harder decisions. For now it's business as usual.

+1, Rather spend energy brainstorming about business and how to afford the Dragon when it lands than worry about what Red might do or not do

 

[Scott Crawley]

"the new upgrade path for Scarlet Users is far away from what was initially offered by RED ..."

I don't direct this observation at anyone in particular, so I'm not attributing the quote (I'm also just too lazy to look for it) But ...

As of right now there is no offer from Red and there has never been an offer.
The quoted argument is in error and folks need to set it aside IMO.

:beatdeadhorse5:
sorry horse

 

[Scott Crawley]

LOL. Hey, Scott, that's me and that line certainly sounds awful hanging there by itself. English is not my native language and I have struggled to express my thoughts as clearly as possible, but in the context of my post I believe that you undesrtand what I was trying to imply. If it didn't come accross clearly, my sincere apologies.
But, hey, I'll shut my mouth regarding this matter. Just was trying to voice my concern in relation to the recent news regarding the Scarlet upgrade. I'll retreat back to my cave Thanks for your feedback and best wishes to you all.

cheers

There is no need for apology and no need to retreat to your cave. I know how it sounds... that is why I didn't attribute it to you. Sorry if removing the context and holding it up as an example is uncomfortable for you. That was not my intent.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

"the new upgrade path for Scarlet Users is far away from what was initially offered by RED ..."

I don't direct this observation at anyone in particular, so I'm not attributing the quote (I'm also just too lazy to look for it) But ...

As of right now there is no offer from Red and there has never been an offer.
The quoted argument is in error and folks need to set it aside IMO.

:beatdeadhorse5:
sorry horse

It's true there was no "offer" but I guess it's one of those issues of how much do you hold RED to what they say in forums and interviews. Most of us know better than to assume anything other than "everything is subject to change". It is reasonable to say that RED has said in the past that there would be a Scarlet upgrade path to dragon and that it would cost a bit more than the $6k upgrade for Epic. I'm sure many people purchased Scarlet with this information in mind and will be sad that there is no longer an upgrade path that suits their budget as they previously expected.

That is one of the unusual things about RED I suppose, they are focused on innovation and transparency but that can make it difficult at times to differentiate promised features from engineering goals. If it was Sony, we (those without Sony NDAs) wouldn't be hearing about any features or upgrades for upcoming products until the very last moment it was possible for them to reveal such information without hurting their competitiveness, but if they didn't live up to their promises/features, their users would be much less understanding. But then Sony doesn't do most of their communication with users on informal internet forums and get everyone excited about products by giving product details at the earliest possible moment like RED does. Some might think this is marketing strategy, but I think it's just that people at RED are so excited about their products they probably couldn't not talk about them even if they tried

An interesting parallel is the 4k RAW upgrade for Sony's FS700, it's one of the few times they've advertised an upgrade without any details (the FS700 was advertised as upgradeable to 4k RAW at its announcement) and they are following through with a 4k RAW upgrade for the camera, but probably delaying in releasing the upgrade or its specs to avoid it hurting sales of their new cameras.

 

[Scott Crawley]

It's true there was no "offer" but I guess it's one of those issues of how much do you hold RED to what they say in forums and interviews.

Before you attempt to hold them to what they say it would be wise to carefully read what they say. While it is true that Red is being more careful about their PR these days, they still don't suffer foolishness that is damaging to their brand. If you cry too loudly about broken promises and no upgrade path be prepared to be called on it. Once again, they have always maintained that they would TRY to come up with a feasible way to shoehorn Dragon into Scarlet and that if it were possible it would most certainly cost more than $6k. Yes they targeted a price close to 6k... but neither worked out.

In my own business I have come to know that customers in the lower end of markets tend to be the highest maintenance customers. I count myself fortunate that Red has tendered a camera to the lower end of the cinema camera market in spite of the pain in the ass that might come with it. I hope they are not regretting that choice right now, because now could turn out to be an opportune time to phase out the budget conscious model ie Scarlet. Pardon me while I cringe in the corner at the thought that this Scarlet that I have could be my one and only chance to own a camera like this.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

... I think the issue is a two tiered system is becoming one...

Please, tell me when a "two tiered system" was promised. I assume by this you are suggesting that there would end up to be a Scarlet Dragon and an Epic Dragon; different cameras?

All that RED ever said was that there would be an upgrade path for Scarlet. They never promised two Dragons. The only thing that has changed is that the "upgrade" now has a "trade-in" component.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Please, tell me when a "two tiered system" was promised. I assume by this you are suggesting that there would end up to be a Scarlet Dragon and an Epic Dragon; different cameras?

All that RED ever said was that there would be an upgrade path for Scarlet. They never promised two Dragons. The only thing that has changed is that the "upgrade" now has a "trade-in" component.

It is possible that Brian was referring to phasing the Scarlet out altogether, no?

 

[Vladimir Druts]

I bought a Scarlet instead of an F3 because I thought Scarlet was going to get Dragon.. Trying to stay positive in the entire thing after a considerable investment that I figured was future proof. Looking forward to seeing what this trade-in will be like, but realistically thinking t's going to be extremely expensive for most people.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

All that RED ever said was that there would be an upgrade path for Scarlet. They never promised two Dragons. The only thing that has changed is that the "upgrade" now has a "trade-in" component.

What Red said is not important since everything is subject to change anyway. What is important is discussing the best solusion for everyone including Red. Jim himself said "Trust me when I tell you that your interest and support does not fall on deaf ears. The support from our customers inspires us to do better. It inspires us to deliver more than anyone might ever expect." I expect that to include Scarleteers. I know there's been a lot of crazy demands for the Scarlet especially concerning price through the years, but I'm sure the more people/customers agreeing, the more they listen. This forum is filled with creative minds, so let's not jump conclusions and make it an either/or situation. I hope Red listens to the people who wouldn't afford 20.000 to upgrade their M-X sensor.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

What is frustrating is watching wild Speculation turn into hopes which then turn into expectations which then turn into bitter complaints when RED doesn't make good on the "promises" they never made. Then comes all the bitter rants about how RED promised this or that, and then didn't deliver and how they can't be trusted. Geesh. Why not just wait and see what comes.

And, what RED says isn't important? Really? I think what RED says IS important - even if it is subject to change, they are the only ones with a perspective on what they can or can't deliver.

 

[Mike Garrick]

All this angst-ing over sensor upgrade.

Scarlet is what is, 2 years from now it will still be a highly viable tool for TV (cinema who knows ?) & that's without any upgrades. Truly, can that be said for other cameras ? Witness Sony F35 once 150K (or was that 250K?) now on sale here for 9K......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F35-Cinealta-camera-PL-Mount-RED-ONE-Camera-Panavision-Arri-Alexa-/300841452863?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Cameras&hash=item460b8c453f

& no one will touch it.

I take what has been said about Scarlet been similar too Red One upgrade programme as nothing but positives......but also remember how some moaned about that extraordinary programme as not being generous enough.

I must admit I'm having tough time seeing any downsides in anything to do with the Scarlet programme.

 

[Simon Knight]

Can I just reiterate on behalf of all low-budget Scarlet owners that all I hope for in the Dragon upgrade is a few had-me-down features that make it a little more 'exciting" ie a little faster fps like 24/25 at 5K. I have the ability to shoot beautiful 4k (for TV and certainly indy-cinema) but can utilise 5K more effectively.... Oh and can we have the stills button working on the side handle please.. Then I have a wonderful full stills image capture device too!

Is that an acceptable request?

SK

 

[Bob Gundu]

I'm certain that the development of features for Scarlet are not going to stop anytime soon.

 

[John Mastrogiacomo]

Thanks, Brian. It would certainly be great if RED cold offer something in those terms.


Yes, certainly. Regarding your question if I prefer a Scarlet Dragon over an Epic Mysterium X for the same price, I will go for the first option. But this is irrelevant to the matter discussed, becasue that just responds to personal needs and wishes (I perfectly understand others would go for the EPIC X).


LOL. Hey, Scott, that's me and that line certainly sounds awful hanging there by itself. English is not my native language and I have struggled to express my thoughts as clearly as possible, but in the context of my post I believe that you undesrtand what I was trying to imply. If it didn't come accross clearly, my sincere apologies.
But, hey, I'll shut my mouth regarding this matter. Just was trying to voice my concern in relation to the recent news regarding the Scarlet upgrade. I'll retreat back to my cave Thanks for your feedback and best wishes to you all.

cheers

Your English is much better than a lot of native English posters I have seen on various forums. Congratulations!

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Can I just reiterate on behalf of all low-budget Scarlet owners that all I hope for in the Dragon upgrade is a few had-me-down features that make it a little more 'exciting" ie a little faster fps like 24/25 at 5K. I have the ability to shoot beautiful 4k (for TV and certainly indy-cinema) but can utilise 5K more effectively.... Oh and can we have the stills button working on the side handle please.. Then I have a wonderful full stills image capture device too!

Is that an acceptable request?

SK

This has nothing to do with the dragon upgrade. Dragon is not going into Scarlet.
You gonna handle your scarlet and get a new camera with the dragon sensor and all the goodies, just like the epic upgrade.
Improving actual scarlet capabilitys is another story and Red is working on that with new builds and all.

 

[Mark Pavy]

Can I just reiterate on behalf of all low-budget Scarlet owners that all I hope for in the Dragon upgrade is a few had-me-down features that make it a little more 'exciting" ie a little faster fps like 24/25 at 5K. I have the ability to shoot beautiful 4k (for TV and certainly indy-cinema) but can utilise 5K more effectively.... Oh and can we have the stills button working on the side handle please.. Then I have a wonderful full stills image capture device too!

Is that an acceptable request?

SK

If you need 5K, why didn't you buy an Epic?