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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet and Dragon...

Bob Gundu said:
I'm getting the feeling RED may move to selling just one camera again. The best RED has to offer in one camera. Actually 2, including a monochrome version. Which is how they began, and will move back to after the upgrade program. Just my 2 Canadian cents.
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I could see that happening for a while, something like this:

1. Red makes dragon upgrade available to epic owners
2. Red makes dragon epic available for scarlet trade in
3. Red converts remaining epic stock to dragon (to help make sure the best red has to offer is on the market)
4. Red stops making new scarlets and sells off stock
5. Red only sells dragon epics
6. Red reduces price of dragon epics and sells off battle tested cameras (scarlets this time) to get people bitten by the "red bug" and expand their costumer base
7. Red runs out of battle tested scarlets and only has epic dragons available which makes red officially a high-end 1 product company
8. Red offers trade in program for monstro

The reason I think it will go this way is because of marketing and quality control. Right now scarlet and epic footage is impossible to tell apart with the exception of slow motion shots or 5k full frame. This will change if the market is half dragon half mysterium-x.

We all know the way internet chatter works...if there are mysterium sensors out there someone will shoot something that shows its weaknesses, it will be mistakenly labeled as dragon, and you have misinformation about dragon quality. I think red will benefit from finding a way that makes as much of the red costumer base dragon upgraded as possible.
 
Either way they will have a large amount of scarlets to refurbish and potentially have a massive sale like with the R1, but remember it was a long time from when they took in the R1's to when they offered the deal. So I wouldn't plan on BT scarlets for at least a year or two after the trade in program... just to be safe.

I'm just hoping for is a decent trade in window
 
thats what I was getting at. The new scarlets compete to closely to release them now. They will have to wait until all current stock has dried up.

The red one was behind the times when they flooded the market with them, at least compared to red. It had 12 bit internal processing compared to epic/scarlets 16 bit (please correct me on this if I'm wrong), lack of support for all the new red lens mounts and modules, and it's WAY bigger than the dsmc system. Those shortcomings compared to dsmc were enough to validate the huge drop in price for the battle tested firesale they had. I doubt we will see that with scarlet until we see a similar gap in performance/ergonomics from whatever red's existing system is.
 
I like to add this, no matter what, owning a Scarlet is simply groundbreaking. Whatever RED chooses to do it's not losing. I'm waiting on my first lens that costs more than $1000 today. As it stands my Scarlet's modular design lends itself to more upgradability which i have yet to approach. So here we are talking 4K HD with PL mount , that's a win. I don't know another camera like that for under $10,000. So the mere fact of getting in the game under $10,000 at 4K is a big win for me this year. I am addressing high-end workflows that I didn't even know existed a year ago. Yes I would like to have 2K at 120 frames per second but at $6000 I would rather have another Scarlett. Whatever their policy for an upgrade is, as it stands it will be additive.
 
I am a little disappointed if i am honest, as part of purchasing my recent Scarlet was due to it being upgradable to Dragon. Ill need to look at what the cost would be with trade in and upgrade to an Epic, which i would love to do, but as i dont film full time, cost constraints will be there. Still have my soul to sell though, lol.

A.
 
Josh Snyder said:
Their lower end model went from 3k$ to 30k$ in few years :)

).
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Just as a realitycheck... RED never had an actual camera deliverable at 3k, untill recently, they all started at +10k.

As they chose not to deliver the 2/3, that price quote is for a camera that never came into existence... (Even though Joseph Hutson got to play with it for a while, and I am sure Jarred pulls it out of his closet for some hollyday family movies...)
 
Josh Snyder said:
Their lower end model went from 3k$ to 30k$ in few years :)

This was pretty much scripted scenario from the get go after the problems and demise of 2/3 Scarlet. ...
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Hindsight is something isn't it? It is all too easy to look back and develop a conspiracy theory. A broader view is in order I think. Red spent an enormous amount of time and money to develop the early Scarlet prototype. Do you really suppose that program was bogus or a deliberately fake plot point in a larger script? Do you suppose the hard feelings that were produced instead of a camera was what Red wanted to get for their time and money?

I think they tried their best to fulfill the desires of an under served market and simply couldn't make it work within the larger context of their business.
 
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I am in the same boat Andrew. I just bought my BT Scarlet in Oct and received it in Dec. I love the camera, and I just shot a short with it (still getting used to the post workflow), but I was under the impression that I would be able to upgrade the sensor to it to keep it relevant with the ever changing landscape of technology. I am concerned with the affordability of the upgrade path as well and would not want to be stuck with a discontinued product with in a year after I bought it. The guys at RED seem to be conscious of these senaroios by taking in feedback left here and will hopfully be accomadating to their loyal and new customers.
 
Im just hoping they offer two pricing structures. Scarlet - Dragon (expensive) and Scarlet - Epic x (CHEAPER). My guess is that they will have a bunch of Epic boards lying around that they wouldn't want to go to waste.
 
The way I see it, I just completed my film on a mix of Scarlet and R1 MX and it looks fantastic. Do I need Dragon? No. Would it be nice, sure. But at the end of the day the camera I have now makes beautiful images rivaling film. Why is everyone so concerned about upgrading their cameras so quickly? Are you guys not getting what you need out of your cameras? I'm just happy we aren't still in the days of HVX with 35mm adapters for nearly the same cost as a scarlet package. My two cents.
 
Ben Scott said:
What about the Dragon ASICS/components that didn't make the grade.... eh? eh? :)
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Good point. Perhaps Scarlet will be around in some form or another for a long time.
 
I'm a Scarlet owner. I didn't invest in a camera "brain" I chose to invest in a system of which the brain is but a part. The point of the modular system is that changing brains is relatively inexpensive compared to replacing an entire integrated camera. It allows us to retain the larger portion of our investment, the modules and accessories, and therefore save a whole lot of money.

To reiterate; Replacing the brain is part of the upgrade plan and as an option it is still less expensive than replacing an entire camera system. Upgrading components within the brain is the least expensive option when available, but it isn't always possible. By isolating the processing parts in the smallest container possible, Red has created the most flexible system we have ever seen while allowing themselves to remain nimble, able to react to and even drive the quickly changing technology without being weighed down by a need to cling to the old technology. It allows us all to keep our cameras current for a minimal expense. It is a Red virtue.

The most important thing IMHO is the upgrade window. For Obsolescence Obsolete to actually and finally become a reality, Red needs to keep that window open as long as possible. I foresee a tiered path not unlike Adobe's upgrade pricing on our horizon.
 
Shehab_Illyas said:
I am in the same boat Andrew. I just bought my BT Scarlet in Oct and received it in Dec. I love the camera, and I just shot a short with it (still getting used to the post workflow), but I was under the impression that I would be able to upgrade the sensor to it to keep it relevant with the ever changing landscape of technology. I am concerned with the affordability of the upgrade path as well and would not want to be stuck with a discontinued product with in a year after I bought it. The guys at RED seem to be conscious of these senaroios by taking in feedback left here and will hopfully be accomadating to their loyal and new customers.
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There's still plenty time until Dragon will be shipped to those who trade in Scarlets. Until then your BT Scarlet should have helped you earn good money. And if, by then, you feel ready to upgrade, RED will trade in your used Scarlet. If they'd be like anyone else, they wouldn't, but they will. I think that's a pretty great deal for you and me!
 
Totally agree Michel, and I am not going to waste time worring about it. Just going to keep shooting and like you say "If I feel I am ready to upgrade" it is great that it will be an option when that time arrives. Once you get yourself out of gear mode I can see a bit more clearly. I think it is just the need to want to have the best and latest and not be left behind that drives your mind to be consumed and concerned with the future of your gear. Plus no one likes it when you go back to the store and the same thing you bought is on sale..just human nature I guess or we have been conditioned to feel like we are entitled in some way.
 
TD Wood said:
The trade in program for Scarlet users is undeniably generous and only a company like RED could offer it. However, that was not part of the original RED announcement/deal when the Scarlet-X started being sold on November 2011. As a Scarlet early buyer, I was equally seduced by the camera as well as by Red's "promise" that the Scarlet brain would be upgradable to Dragon. And as a Scarlet user, I was more than willing to spend around $6000-10000 (more than the actual cost of a new Scarlet brain) for it. Contrary to what you state, we (scarlet customers) did in fact invest in an "upgradable" brain because that is precisely what we were told: that the brain was upgradable (a bit more expensive than the epic upgrade, but upgradable after all).

Now we are being told that Scarlet brain is not upgradable and offered the chance to trade in our Scarlets for an Epic-Dragon. Incredible offer indeed (no other company does this), but probably unaffordable by many Scarlet owners; consequently, many will eventually get stuck -in the far future, hopefully- with a non-upgradable camera (contrary to what was announced).

I have to admit, however, that I would still have bought my Scarlet even if RED had not included the upgrade path to Dragon and I guess that is precisely my point after all: maybe RED should have avoided announcing an upgrade path for Scarlet if they were not 100% sure this was possible.

Anyways, just a thought. I love my Scarlet and have absolutely no regrets of having purchased it. On the contrary, it has been the best investment (creatively and financially) I have ever made... and I will most likely upgrade to Epic-Dragon :))

Cheers.
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I agree .
 
TD Wood said:
The trade in program for Scarlet users is undeniably generous and only a company like RED could offer it. However, that was not part of the original RED announcement/deal when the Scarlet-X started being sold on November 2011. As a Scarlet early buyer, I was equally seduced by the camera as well as by Red's "promise" that the Scarlet brain would be upgradable to Dragon. And as a Scarlet user, I was more than willing to spend around $6000-10000 (more than the actual cost of a new Scarlet brain) for it. Contrary to what you state, we (scarlet customers) did in fact invest in an "upgradable" brain because that is precisely what we were told: that the brain was upgradable (a bit more expensive than the epic upgrade, but upgradable after all).

Now we are being told that Scarlet brain is not upgradable and offered the chance to trade in our Scarlets for an Epic-Dragon. Incredible offer indeed (no other company does this), but probably unaffordable by many Scarlet owners; consequently, many will eventually get stuck -in the far future, hopefully- with a non-upgradable camera (contrary to what was announced).

I have to admit, however, that I would still have bought my Scarlet even if RED had not included the upgrade path to Dragon and I guess that is precisely my point after all: maybe RED should have avoided announcing an upgrade path for Scarlet if they were not 100% sure this was possible.

Anyways, just a thought. I love my Scarlet and have absolutely no regrets of having purchased it. On the contrary, it has been the best investment (creatively and financially) I have ever made... and I will most likely upgrade to Epic-Dragon :))

Cheers.
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I understand that. I don't know when I will be able to do an upgrade either but that is because we don't know fully what the options will be yet, much less what it will actually cost. I see no reason to get my tidy whities torqued up about it the way some folks are. I figure; I can get upset about what might happen or wait to see what does. I can be upset about high aspirations that were not met or be excited that Red has over delivered on the new sensor. I can hold their feet to the fire about a promise that I thought was broken (Which by the way was never actually made) or keep in mind that they are a young company without much experience predicting what they will actually be able to achieve or when.

Obsolescence Obsolete. That was the promise. I don't recall them promising exactly how It would be done, but the evidence is in the engineering.

It sounds like you and Scarlet are very happy together. I wish you all of the best so that it might remain that way regardless of the path you take.

Cheers. :-)
 
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Apologies as I've come to the RED party late.... Did you guys get told originally the price to upgrade to Dragon? Epic=$6,000 Scarlet=$10,000?
I ask because the statement about there 'not' being an upgrade path to Dragon is not correct. it's just going to be costlier that you thought. Rather than having a Dragon sensor inside your box that says "Scarlet" on the outside you will have a Dragon sensor inside a different box that says "Epic" on the outside. But it's still what you wanted isn't it?

How many of you that were wanting Scarlet for $3k still paid for it at $10k? You will be the ones that will pay $15k for the upgrade despite being told it was going to be $10k.

I'm sorry to seem picky, but many people are clamouring for next years "must-have" gadget and are trying to justify the price paid/being asked to pay. Which we don't know yet.!
If you want to see the desperation and the whites of some people eyes - nip over to BlackMagic Forum. Otherwise lets wait and see what RED offers.

Again from my standpoint - Red, please just keep adding to the Scarlet, one firmware at a time. I'll be happy and loyal - I promise!

SK
 
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