SCARLET AND 3D

[Nick Morrison]

Hey guys, is anyone else thinking about using Scarlet for 3D? I just read the low budget 3D article in this month's American Cinematographer, and that more safe "French Converged" method used in Pina sounds like a good way to start. Anyone know of some affordable side by side rigs to start experimenting with this? The crazy 90degree rigs are clearly expensive. But surely, some of those side by side ones are more reasonable right?

I was even going to do some tests with my Canon DSLRs in the meantime. I have some matching Contax 50 1.4s I could put on both cameras. And we just upgraded to Avid 6, that has some amazing 3D options now to edit with. Makes it much easier to play with.

But again, any ideas about some affordable, easy to play with side by side 3D setups, even just for tests?

3D hasn't really entered into our promo/content workflow yet, but I'm sure it will, and I want to be ahead of the curve. I'm sure there are about a 100 of you thinking the same thing, so let me know what early gear you are considering. Would be really helpful, I'm sure for all of us.

Again, love being on this board. Been a longtime reader, and just recent poster. Am having a blast!

Thx guys.

- Nick

 

[Brian Merlen]

I saw a side by side in B&H when I was reading it in my bathroom the other day, I was amazed how cheap it was, a little too cheap honestly. I know there is a whole science to stereopgrahy but I just got Avid 6 and I too cannot wait to mess around with some stereoscopic stuff. I heard Sony has some training course for stereography and I have been thinking about looking into getting certified in it. I mean I already know how to key frame so messing with convergence in post can't be that hard if you follow the rules and don't cross eye the audience... I loved that opening shot in the newest Resident Evil, that was an amazing use of 3d!

 

[Patrick Lavaud]

Question, can you should 3D stereo using one scarlet and one epic, both at 4k 24fps for example ?

Don't plan to do it but just curious if there is any difference between the 2 cameras in this case.

 

[Roshdi Alkadri]

Question, can you should 3D stereo using one scarlet and one epic, both at 4k 24fps for example ?

Don't plan to do it but just curious if there is any difference between the 2 cameras in this case.

Same sensor, frame size and rate. I don't think there would be a problem except with HDRX

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

According to previous tests, eye separation & size of Scarlet, you CAN'T use a side by side with Scarlet. You must use a 90degree 3D rig to get a proper eye separation.

 

[Nick Morrison]

According to previous tests, eye separation & size of Scarlet, you CAN'T use a side by side with Scarlet.

So I take it THIS rig won't work:

REDROCK MICRO 3D RIG

Damn.

Benoit, is this even true for a restrained 3D approach, like French Converged?

Was hoping for an affordable method to muck about with. Thanks for the feedback, though. Appreciate it.

 

[Stephen Wheeler]

According to previous tests, eye separation & size of Scarlet, you CAN'T use a side by side with Scarlet. You must use a 90degree 3D rig to get a proper eye separation.

Could you clarify this for me? I understand that not all IA distances can be done in a side by side set with any camera not just scarlet, but how do you define proper separation? While it is true that you cant get a human IA in side by side, even when shooting in parallel, you can get pretty close.

 

[Keith Putnam]

Could you clarify this for me? I understand that not all IA distances can be done in a side by side set with any camera not just scarlet, but how do you define proper separation? While it is true that you cant get a human IA in side by side, even when shooting in parallel, you can get pretty close.

It's not that you can't use a side-by-side rig, it's that side-by-side rigs are rarely appropriate for the majority of coverage one would want in a typical narrative production. Even with the two camera bodies touching, the IA on an s-b-s rig will be somewhere around five inches, which is pretty huge for any shot that isn't either deliberately exaggerated or trying to capture a large volume of space (like a landscape). With an IA that wide the closest your near subject can be, realistically, is somewhere around eight feet away (depending on your tolerances for various amounts of foreground and background deviation).

In typical narrative coverage in typical environments you're going to want IAs that don't get much wider than two to three inches or so, and even that will seem extreme for most subjects. It's impossible to have an IA that small with a side-by-side rig when you're limited by how wide the camera bodies themselves are. Save side-by-side rigs for shots in which your nearest subject is far away and you're trying to get a sense of depth out of a very large volume of space.

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

Search on this forum. We saw someone testing a 90degree rig with Scarlet interchangeable prototypes. I asked him about side by side, he said it's clearly impossible because of the reasons well explained by Keith.

 

[Stacey Spears]

According to previous tests, eye separation & size of Scarlet, you CAN'T use a side by side with Scarlet. You must use a 90degree 3D rig to get a proper eye separation.

Sure you can. I have been shooting 3D on a pair of EPICs using a side-by-side rig. You do need to understand the limitations. You will have to restrict how close the nearest object can be. With 5" between the center of the lenses, I have to limit the closest object to 12'5". I have been using the 3D Film Factory rig.

I am about to run some tests with a pair of TS-E 24mm Canon lenses. I should be able to shift the lenses towards each other and get as close as 4", which means I can hit 10'.

There are other items you need as well. A pair of break-out cables that RED has for sale as well as a TC and Genlock box.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Sure you can. I have been shooting 3D on a pair of EPICs using a side-by-side rig. You do need to understand the limitations. You will have to restrict how close the nearest object can be. With 5" between the center of the lenses, I have to limit the closest object to 12'5". I have been using the 3D Film Factory rig.

Really fascinating, Stacey. It seems like the 90degree rig is the most USEFUL and PRACTICAL, but those seem to be in the 5-10K range minimum. Its good to know there is a $900-$1000 option for limited 3D. Even with those limitations, its nice to know that an affordable 3D rig is POSSIBLE. As a starting point. You can learn the kinks on these parallel rigs, and them move up to 90degrees when you are ready.

Any advantage you think of the 3D Film Factory rig to the RedRock Micro 3D?

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Stacey Spears]

It seems like the 90degree rig is the most USEFUL and PRACTICAL

You can get as close as you want with a beamsplitter rig. There are other issues with a beamsplitter. Both systems require setup.

I have not looked at the RR Micro. Guess I will need to check it out.

Plan to spend at least $1300 on the TC/Genlock box and necessary cables.

 

[Tyler Garn]

I suggest testing a post-fix solution for your project.

I know it's not ideal for a lot of narrative-style shooting but I have been shooting SBS (with Sony v1-u's) for about two years and outputting some decent looking 3D for an interactive training simulator my company sells. Most everything we shoot is with wide focal lengths but even with some tighter shots I have had good luck shooting SBS and then correcting the Inter-ocular distance in post. We output 720 HD so the 1080 HDV images gives me some leeway to pan the image a bit for re-framing. Keep in mind that it's not just as simple as cropping in and converging the shots, there is usually additional correction needed for lens distortion and differing camera angles. also, I do not think this approach works very well for large close ups.

I use a Cineform based solution that allows me to sync the two eye views in their application called Firstlight and do a lot of the 3D correction there and then output 3D "muxed" shots that import into Premiere Pro 5.5 and allow me to edit just as I would a regular piece of 2d footage. When it's time to output you can select the type of stereo output you want, so you don't have to be locked into a specific output type at the start of the project. It adds steps but I find it a very convenient way of working. It even allows you to view the footage as you edit in a variety of formats. For example, you can select one of the anaglyph modes and edit wearing inexpensive red/cyan glasses if you don't have a special 3D program monitor.

This is the same approach I plan to use with a dual Scarlet rig I have on order. I will be shooting quad 4k on a SBS stereo rig and cropping to a 1080 output. I don't believe this is the best solution for all projects but the stuff I have output has often exceeded my expectations. I think the most important thing about making this approach work is knowing the limitations before you shoot.

 

[Stephen Wheeler]

Thank you Stacy
You seemed to understand my problem with saying scarlets are impossible on a side by side rig. I've used a modified camera slider for 3D photography and it worked out all right. It was less then ideal but it was a good cheep way to start learning about composing 3D images.

 

[Nick Morrison]

When it's time to output you can select the type of stereo output you want, so you don't have to be locked into a specific output type at the start of the project. It adds steps but I find it a very convenient way of working.

Tyler very informative. I'm pretty much thinking along your lines. Of doing a lot of the work in post. Avid 6 is supposed to handle 3D GREAT. And we've just upgraded.

Obviously, SBS is not ideal, but you and Stacey are making it clear it's a least doable. A good place to start and learn the basics.

Thanks for sharing.

- NICK