Scarlet 4.5k

[Patrick Grossien]

Usually I try to stay away from these threads nowadays. But one thing about the whole processing power deal is that it depends on the horizontal lines. At least that's what has been stated numerous times. So it's more the height than the width what defines the speed/frame rates etc. Don't ask me why it's just what they said. So the theorie in calculating data rates just doesn't apply. At least not to the extent everyone believes. (I did too). And if they can't pull at least 24fps it just doesn't make sense to include it.

 

[Nathaniel Opgenorth]

I don't think it's an "entitlement" problem, so much as a 'it should it be possible, right?' question. It's just peculiar that 4.5k = 4480x1920 = 8.6mp/frame, while 4k = 4096x2160 = 8.85mp/frame. Realistically it should be easier to process/capture 4.5k than 4k. Benefits being two fold: it'd give you even better spacial resolution (especially when downscaled or compared to cropping) and, better still, it'd give you MX's full 1.3x frame (just cropped to ~2.35:1)…

I've been fooling around with 4k WS at 5:1 and there is a noticeable difference… barely, but noticeable. It's a double down; better/lower compression applied to less pixels = double improvement benefits. Definitely had me salivating for some 4.5k love…

Saying 'if you want more, get a $10k Dragon/Epic upgrade' is just as unfair as expecting the Scarlet to do 4.5k… I think most people are not *expecting* any more from Scarlet, they're *hoping* for it. Better example, 4k WS at 36fps was never intended, but here we are two years later and it actually works well. It's more resolution than 3k (even when cropped to 16:9), and it's more framerate at "4k" than Scarlet-users were ever expecting.

Usually I try to stay away from these threads nowadays. But one thing about the whole processing power deal is that it depends on the horizontal lines. At least that's what has been stated numerous times. So it's more the height than the width what defines the speed/frame rates etc. Don't ask me why it's just what they said. So the theorie in calculating data rates just doesn't apply. At least not to the extent everyone believes. (I did too). And if they can't pull at least 24fps it just doesn't make sense to include it.

Mind posting a link to where you saw that? I'm seriously curious. No offense but an argument that isn't backed up by common sense let alone specifics and an article is a bad one...anyways even if they never add a 4.5K 2.4:1 mode a 4K anamorphic mode is pretty much needed....

EDIT: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-Data-Sheets&p=1288134&viewfull=1#post1288134 Phil's post #91. He makes a point that "WS Mode" is always faster read out speed, and while it doesn't have any technical back up Phil generally speaking has always been on the money...maybe I'll shoot him a PM if I get a chance. I'm really more curious than looking to argue BTW hope I didn't come off as argumentative.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I respect and understand the inquiry into what the Scarlet system's ceiling is and whether it might be possible to see firmware upgrades that push the absolute limit. The difficulty is that only the engineers at Red actually know what the Scarlet's maximum potential is. It's quite possible that the hardware inside each Scarlet is not going to benchmark exactly the same and those fluctuations might lead to an averaging process that determines what feature set is released to the public via firmware. I'm sure there are both technical and legal reasoning that goes into this.

Safe to say that Red has thought through all of this and determined what makes the most sense from a technical, business, and legal standpoint. Are they crippling features that could work on Scarlet to protect their Epic sales? Again, the truth to that matter lies within the walls of Red headquarters and understandably will probably never be divulged one way or the other. Suffice it to say that it doesn't hurt to ask the questions, as long as one understands the answers may never materialize unless it meets the technical, business, and legal criteria.

Scarlet is a powerful camera in its own right, so fortunately while one awaits these answers they still have a very capable imaging system that can compete with the best cinema cameras in the market.

 

[Nathaniel Opgenorth]

I respect and understand the inquiry into what the Scarlet system's ceiling is and whether it might be possible to see firmware upgrades that push the absolute limit. The difficulty is that only the engineers at Red actually know what the Scarlet's maximum potential is. It's quite possible that the hardware inside each Scarlet is not going to benchmark exactly the same and those fluctuations might lead to an averaging process that determines what feature set is released to the public via firmware. I'm sure there are both technical and legal reasoning that goes into this.

Safe to say that Red has thought through all of this and determined what makes the most sense from a technical, business, and legal standpoint. Are they crippling features that could work on Scarlet to protect their Epic sales? Again, the truth to that matter lies within the walls of Red headquarters and understandably will probably never be divulged one way or the other. Suffice it to say that it doesn't hurt to ask the questions, as long as one understands the answers may never materialize unless it meets the technical, business, and legal criteria.

Scarlet is a powerful camera in its own right, so fortunately while one awaits these answers they still have a very capable imaging system that can compete with the best cinema cameras in the market.

Very solid point and honestly I think 5K 12fps could have some very interesting use for "fast motion" scenes, and I can say that working at 12fps is weird but its sort of a fun thing as well, creates a new artistic look, now its hard when things start moving fast but you can mess with shutter angles and what not. Either way I'd be very happy with any Scarlet or even original RED One for finishing a film in 4K even today. I think people forget just how good these cameras are and how future proof they are.

 

[Maik Müller]

Usually I try to stay away from these threads nowadays. But one thing about the whole processing power deal is that it depends on the horizontal lines. At least that's what has been stated numerous times. So it's more the height than the width what defines the speed/frame rates etc. Don't ask me why it's just what they said. So the theorie in calculating data rates just doesn't apply. At least not to the extent everyone believes. (I did too). And if they can't pull at least 24fps it just doesn't make sense to include it.

Agreed Patrick. Why does everyone think RED isn't saying the truth about the limitations and then at the same time wants them to do a free specs-upgrade via software?

The fact that 5kWS didn't get more fps on Scarlet is a indication too. I'm pretty sure RED would have given us more, if possible, even if its just 1 or 2 more fps.

There was some talk about a custom resolution features, so that might be the last hope on that matter. Maybe it finds its way into MX-generation cameras and maybe (big one) this could allow motion with more than 4k by sacrificing vertical resolution.

That being said, REDs real answer to all that are the generous upgrade-options. Scarlet-X delivers everything that was promised and is still a great 4k-camera. RED doesn't need to bump up specs for free to keep up with competition, as it still is in the lead in most areas and on the other hand gets replaced soon by its successor (Dragon Scarlet).

As boring as it sounds (but hey, those never-ending requests for a free specs-upgrade get boring and a bit frustrating too), if you want more, pay for it by buying a EPIC or wait for Dragon Scarlet.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Of course I don't have the credentials like Phil or some of the other big users. But I don't post random half-knowledge noise just because I feel like it.
If I am not sure about something I mention that, too! Not angry, just a bit frustrated but all is good.

Here's one of the written references:

]Its not a complete free-for-all as remember the frame rate is determined not by the raw volume of pixels, but the volume of rows. To get higher frame rate, you need to reduce the number of rows.

So if yo have 5120x2700 frame size and a 4800x2700 frame size ( for example ) the framerate max is the same as the number of rows are the same... but you will get better compression numbers with the smaller number columns. And the inverse is true, If you change that to 5120x2700 vs 5120x2160, then your frame max rate goes up on the second one.

Make sense?

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Agreed Patrick. Why does everyone think RED isn't saying the truth about the limitations and then at the same time wants them to do a free specs-upgrade via software?
The fact that 5kWS didn't get more fps on Scarlet is a indication too. I'm pretty sure RED would have given us more, if possible, even if its just 1 or 2 more fps.

Thanks Maik!

 

[Mike P.]

Of course I don't have the credentials like Phil or some of the other big users. But I don't post random half-knowledge noise just because I feel like it.
If I am not sure about something I mention that, too! Not angry, just a bit frustrated but all is good.

Here's one of the written references:

But Jarred's comment is precisely why 4.5k seems more plausible, no? E.g. Scarlet does 2160p at 30fps… 1920 is ~11% reduction in rows, and 24fps is 20% less frames (both rows and framerate are reduced quite a bit).

Don't get me wrong, if it's not possible, it's not. But until the reasons behind it not being possible are explained (at least explained in a little more detail than "we've maxed it" or "it's not gonna happen"), it's understandable that questions/hopes of getting 4.5k/24fps are going to continue to crop up.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Didn't calculate it out and of course I'm all for it if possible. When they offer 24fps everyone will be "why don't we get 25?" and so on. To me it's more about the demanding nature of the whole thing. It's been on the plate since forever and all I'm saying is that if they will be able to make it possible, I am sure they will enable it. I just don't believe that they don't know about the existing wish

 

[Donnie King]

If Red added 4.5K to Scarlet, I bet they'd make a good deal of money through transfer of ownership fees...

Yeah I have to say I definitely agree with you on that one!