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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet 2K?

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Lee Saxon

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Comparing the price/performance ratio of Red to the other brands (3K@120fps@100MB/s vs downsampled 1080p@60fps@24Mbps for the same $6k) is just absurdly embarrassing for those other brands, in my opinion.

I'm forced to wonder how affordably could Red deliver a 2K@60fps@~50-60MB/s prosumer camera? Cheaper than a GH2? Give them out for free?

DO IT. CONQUER THE WORLD.
 
I think it has become evident, that given 4k Red One @ 17.5K, cannot simply scale down to whatever and bring a similar price drop without removing the magic that makes a Red awesome.

What the Scarlet system has become is proof of that. 3K for $6,000 is awesome for a professional camera, but it doesn't mean you can scale it to 1K for $2,000 and still have a solid body, the bandwidth and power for RAW....
 
Well I'm exaggerating talking about the GH2 price-range, but consider that the 3K@120fps camera is a third the price of the 5K@60fps camera (and half even with a sweet built-in zoom).

2K@60fps would require way less bandwidth/horsepower than 3K@120fps. That in turn means less heat that needed dissipating. Being prosumer-targeted, the body could be half as solid as Scarlet and still crush the competition. And a sensor that had to readout half as fast might even be a little cheaper to build.

I bet it could be noticeably cheaper than Scarlet 3K.
 
Lee Saxon said:
I bet it could be noticeably cheaper than Scarlet 3K.
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Is that really a good reason to do it though? I think Scarlet is cheap enough to round out RED's product line and when the time comes to spend years in development on another camera around that price range, I for one would rather RED spend all that time, effort and money making something better, not worse.
 
Stephen Gentle said:
Is that really a good reason to do it though? I think Scarlet is cheap enough to round out RED's product line and when the time comes to spend years in development on another camera around that price range, I for one would rather RED spend all that time, effort and money making something better, not worse.
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Exactly, Red's strategy is to make things so good that even though they're late, it's still better than everything else.
 
Stephen, I think you're looking at it backwards. It doesn't take away money from Epic 2 development, it adds it.

To use a car analogy: BMW has the R&D money to make the M5 awesome for the 12 people that buy them because they sell 98450238905432890523 3ers.

I'm not even talking about my theoretical "Scarlet 2K." Scarlet 3K is going to start bringing in the "3 series" (prosumer) customers, especially now that Epic-S is there to catch many of the budding pros who can't quite afford Epic-X. Red & Red users are going to have to let the "prosumer is a dirty word" thing go.
 
Lee Saxon said:
Stephen, I think you're looking at it backwards. It doesn't take away money from Epic 2 development, it adds it.

To use a car analogy: BMW has the R&D money to make the M5 awesome for the 12 people that buy them because they sell 98450238905432890523 3ers.

I'm not even talking about my theoretical "Scarlet 2K." Scarlet 3K is going to start bringing in the "3 series" (prosumer) customers, especially now that Epic-S is there to catch many of the budding pros who can't quite afford Epic-X. Red & Red users are going to have to let the "prosumer is a dirty word" thing go.
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I am afraid you are raising issues that Jim put to rest some time ago when he declared that RED was a company serving professionals. No prosumer intent any longer. I think you may have missed that discussion but it was pretty clear. I doubt you'll be seeing a 2K or otherwise "compromised" camera coming from RED just to hit a low price point. :coolgleamA:
 
Yes, that discussion is exactly what I'm referring to.

Scarlet is going to attract tons of prosumers no matter how much Red decries it. Jim prefers to call the Scarlet customer an "aspiring pro," but it's the same thing. We can use that term if that makes everybody happier. Or "pro with a limited budget."

Considering that they keep talking about how 4K is the future, you could argue that a 3K camera is a "compromised camera intended to hit a price point." Or you could argue that based on its less robust platform. Or you could argue that based on the lack of HD-SDI.

What I'm saying is that as long as it's still better than everything else (which it is), there's nothing wrong with that
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I am afraid you are raising issues that Jim put to rest some time ago when he declared that RED was a company serving professionals. No prosumer intent any longer. I think you may have missed that discussion but it was pretty clear. I doubt you'll be seeing a 2K or otherwise "compromised" camera coming from RED just to hit a low price point. :coolgleamA:
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People are professionals not equipment Terry. Do you think you will become a pro when you purchase your RED?

Lee Saxon said:
What I'm saying is that as long as it's still better than everything else (which it is), there's nothing wrong with that
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For something to be 'still better than everything else' it has to be actually something. Once it is something then it could be better than everything else, although it won't be for everyone all the time. After some time has passed then it could 'still be better then everything else'. I'm really fascinated if you apply this logic to everything in your life.

My next girlfriend will be better than the one I have now, but you haven't met her, and after dating her for time she will still be better than the others.

The logic here is bizarre.

Still no real world Scarlet footage?
 
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Ash Worth said:
People are professionals not equipment Terry. Do you think you will become a pro when you purchase your RED?
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You are missing the point completely. What I say is as irrelevant as what you say. I am simply pointing out that Jim has made a statement about RED's direction and it doesn't include going downscale to a mass market camera.

I seem to recall you've been a doubter for a long time. So far you are right, I suppose; there is no Scarlet available yet. Soon enough, you will be wrong. We'll see, won't we. :smilielol5:
 
It have to be 3k to resolve in crisp 1080p! Not like 1440x1080 that stretches to fuzzy 1080p. I think it was a very wise choice for everybody that not doing cinematic releases (even tho I believe it will deliver stunning images even for the big screen!).
 
Lee Saxon said:
is just absurdly embarrassing for those other brands, in my opinion.
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How is it embarrassing? They have a camera on the market now at a good price point, being used on commercial projects.

It is statements like this that damage REDuser as a community.

Once all the cameras are readily available, then compare what gives the best bang for buck. Simple.
 
I'm dreaming of a RED camera, that could also take full HD R3D videos and that would be available at the same price of a GH2.
 
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Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig said:
I'm dreaming of a RED camera, that could also take full HD R3D videos and that would be available at the same price of a GH2.
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Keep dreaming.:rolleyes5:

Red's pro orientation has little to do with market price or if the camera is affordable for consumers, beginners, or non-pro hobbyists. It has everything to do with operating controls and features, reliability, quality of construction, owner support, and performance beyond just resolution.

David Mullen made some pertinent points regarding white balance for instance. Consumer/prosumer market cameras do a lot of behind the lens "thinking" for the shooter with features like auto white balance from scene content, sophisticated auto exposure functions, etc. whereas a "pro" camera like Red just does what the shooter tells it to do, no more no less. You can put most prosumer DSLR's and camcorders in full auto mode and know that you are going to get a more or less decent quality image even if it is not the best the camera can do in competent hands.
That kind of full auto, no effort required of the shooter function doesn't exist on Reds. It takes some appreciable degree of skill and knowledge to get decent footage from these cameras. But they are incredible tools in the hands of a competent artist, amateur or otherwise.
 
I personally would love to see RED come out with a camera in the < 3k price range, but we must realize what that might mean. There is huge demand for the existing Epic and Scarlet 2/3" models at their existing price. What would happen if they delivered such an awesome image for a lower price regardless of the resolution achieved?

One of the biggest problems I see for red to enter the true prosumer market is volume. RED is awesome at designing killer products, but they do not have the infrastructure in place to build hundreds of thousands of cameras yet. While we see the added features as the main cause for the price hike on the scarlet models, I think capacity is also an issue. RED is committed to providing a complete customer experience and service. If their customer base grows faster then their customer service capabilities it would become virtually impossible to accomplish this level of service, thus one good reason for them to focus on professional level gear. Another reason would be a desire to only produce full featured products, as evidenced by the inclusion of the HDR goodies in scarlet 2/3".

I could see them being positioned to enter this market in a few years if they decided to do so, but it's probably not wise to do so right now. Keep in mind it would also be a tricky balancing act of price vs features, although very possible.

Wait!!! in a few years they will have conquered 4k TV and home delivery, and they will probably figure out how to make things in a less expensive way. Thus we will be talking about a totally different camera and will be watching the other brands smoldering in the distance while RED dominates the market. :001_smile:
 
I would love to see a RED photo camera with a modular system (with or without video).
 
Terry VerHaar said:
You are missing the point completely. What I say is as irrelevant as what you say. I am simply pointing out that Jim has made a statement about RED's direction and it doesn't include going downscale to a mass market camera.

I seem to recall you've been a doubter for a long time. So far you are right, I suppose; there is no Scarlet available yet. Soon enough, you will be wrong. We'll see, won't we. :smilielol5:
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Not a doubter at all Terry, how could I be with Epic out there. But these comments all add to the negative feeling about RED in the industry. It's like I always have to make excuses to producers about the RED community when I want to use a RED ONE. They turn their noses up and give me a list of reasons not too based on the attitudes expressed here. That's all.

Jim Retar said:
How is it embarrassing? They have a camera on the market now at a good price point, being used on commercial projects.

It is statements like this that damage REDuser as a community.

Once all the cameras are readily available, then compare what gives the best bang for buck. Simple.
Click to expand...

I'll shut up. Jim makes the point more eloquently than I.
 
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