Scarlet 2 - Bored 2.0 ;)

[Dan Hudgins]

Bin before or after interpolation

Bin before or after interpolation

Yes binned.

Binning in the sensor, like from 4K to 2K, makes the de-Bayer artifacts moire and aliasing, larger than binning through image down size after interpolation, the way red Interpolates "full processing" at 4K then down sizes to 2K and HD makes it easier to get good results, and the dynamic range benefit is similar to doing it in the sensor or using larger and fewer pixels in the first place.

If you have three cameras with sensors of equal size active area:

1) 2K sensor Bayer to record

2) 4K bin in sensor and output 2K Bayer data to record

3) 4K recorded and reduced to 2K after interpolation and processing

Camera 3, like REDONE in some ways, will produce similar dynamic range but smaller artifacts.

Camera 2) may have resolution issues over camera 1) because of the smaller pixels in the bin group picking up moire and so the way you can sharpen cameras 1) and 2) are not identical and the results are not identical. With camera 1) the sharpen for the anti-OLPF can make a more definite peek, in sensor bin makes some "confusion" due to the "fractured" area within the binned space not forming from a single peak.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Binning in the sensor, like from 4K to 2K, makes the de-Bayer artifacts moire and aliasing, larger than binning through image down size after interpolation

Referring to hardware binning not the sesperate downsizing. I see your point though, the different colors have under 25-50% coverage, to make matters worse you need greater than groups of 4 pixels to get any binning advantage out of red or green, that will teach me posting when off color . You basically need to debayer in the bin group in order to increase accuracy (see below). Still, I have maintained that it would be advantageous to have a pixel structure that separates out the proportion of the complimentary color component at each Bayer primary, and have also come up with some designs in the past that separately binned the primary light colors across pixel groups. One of the major companies came up with a design like one of my previouse ones. I can't remember which, I posted an update at dvinfo but it was killed. Binning would be easier if you could bin the complimentary channel for low light and debayer/interpolate the primary color channels. Still the idea I was thinking of is you could theoretically bin all the pixel group together but have a proportion measuring mechanism for the colors as they pass through, this would give an approximation of color for debayering and low light binning. My latest contribution (I claim invention).

The way forward for companies like Red is to lay hold to licences for variouse beneficial sensor technologies. I know of a handful of sensors that had technologies very advantageous over what is used, like color constancy at over 25 stops latitude, three tri color pixels technologies, the fill factor techniques etc. Compared to what can be, we are only at the beginning.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Update: Ok, Monstro is the next sensor series.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Ok, Jarred confirmed the present 2/3rd inch scarlet is 3k over at the second 10 questions thread, but mysteriously his reply then dissapeared. A real shame, would have really liked a nice little surprise.

 

[Maik Müller]

A sensor-upgrade would be more than a nice little surprise. I'm sure we will get a few nice little surprises, but honestly, don't expect something like a new sensor. It will not happen, the design is final and i think 3k is fine for now.

We will see how good its output is compared to upcoming 4k-cameras from Canon and other companies. I don't expect Scarlet to fall extremely behind them.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

A sensor-upgrade would be more than a nice little surprise. I'm sure we will get a few nice little surprises, but honestly, don't expect something like a new sensor. It will not happen, the design is final and i think 3k is fine for now.

We will see how good its output is compared to upcoming 4k-cameras from Canon and other companies. I don't expect Scarlet to fall extremely behind them.

JVC and Canon are the only two other companies I can think of that have shown equipment off with 4K technology. JVC's seemed much closer than Canon's. But Canon's looked like a hairdryer, and JVC's looked like there already released pro-sumer camera. I'd take 3K with higher frame rates with REDS design over the same old prosumer camera design JVC looked to be creating. Canon said that it was only a prototype and that they weren't producing a 4K product at the point they showed off the prototype. I really think the frame rates and raw ability in the Scarlet will still take it a level above in the market it fits into.

 

[Maik Müller]

I'd take 3K with higher frame rates with REDS design over the same old prosumer camera design JVC looked to be creating. Canon said that it was only a prototype and that they weren't producing a 4K product at the point they showed off the prototype. I really think the frame rates and raw ability in the Scarlet will still take it a level above in the market it fits into.

Yes, i totally agree. I even think Scarlet will have similar results in measured real resolution. Most of todays cameras are somewhere at 60% and RED has proven to be able to go a lot higher. I dont think JVC or Canon will improve as much as they should in this area. Do the math with 80% of 3k and 60% of 4k.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Yes, i totally agree. I even think Scarlet will have similar results in measured real resolution. Most of todays cameras are somewhere at 60% and RED has proven to be able to go a lot higher. I dont think JVC or Canon will improve as much as they should in this area. Do the math with 80% of 3k and 60% of 4k.

Exactly! Boy it's quiet in RED land lately... Calm before the storm?

 

[Michael Olsen]

I really think the frame rates and raw ability in the Scarlet will still take it a level above in the market it fits into.

The thing I like best about the Scarlet is that if William gets one to start working with, along with a few modules, he can step up after he gets that first big job and get an Epic brain without having to pay for a battery interface, media interface, monitor, or EVF again, much less the batteries and media themselves. Smart.

He may even shell out a little bit more down the road to get the Scarlet set up as a B-cam, making it perfect for interview/corporate work as a locked off camera.

And then, of course, when that documentary comes along and they need something with deep focus, he can whip out the old Scarlet brain and shoot some brilliant footage on the 2/3" sensor. And compliment that by shooting some cinematic pick-ups with the Epic. Hmm...William is a pretty cool guy.

 

[Maik Müller]

Exactly! Boy it's quiet in RED land lately... Calm before the storm?

Oh yeah, i hope so..

 

[Maik Müller]

The thing I like best about the Scarlet is that if William gets one to start working with, along with a few modules, he can step up after he gets that first big job and get an Epic brain without having to pay for a battery interface, media interface, monitor, or EVF again, much less the batteries and media themselves. Smart.
....William is a pretty cool guy.

And we all can be cool too, thanks to RED.
You're right, thats something a few people tend to oversee, if you start with scarlet you'll have many components that you can use with EPIC later. RED's modular system alone would be reason enough for me to love it.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

And we all can be cool too, thanks to RED.
You're right, thats something a few people tend to oversee, if you start with scarlet you'll have many components that you can use with EPIC later. RED's modular system alone would be reason enough for me to love it.

Exactly within particular people I talk to I get alot of why would you go there, why would you want to shoot RED and one of my arguments every time is that well If I get the Scarlet, I'll get RedVolts or Bricks, DSMC Side handle, EVF/touchscreen, I/O module and transferable media to the next camera. They all love the Sony's... Sure you spend less up front... but every time Sony or Panasonic upgrades the media changes, the Batteries change... so on so forth... Where when I upgrade I don't plan to just buy the next Sony I look to get an Epic S at some point and alot of the camera components will allow me to strictly buy the body and keep shooting (assuming I have lenses).

Comon RED I need a new camera to be out there shooting soon Well it's actually more of a WANT.

Another interesting thought since this is the Scarlet 2.0 thread. Does everyone anticipate there being a trade in program for the next Scarlet if you have the current one? Assuming they make a second one. Or maybe it's something we could even trade in towards the value of an Epic? What are they doing all the RED One's they're taking in for Epics?

 

[Stephen Matthews]

No I don't expect a trade in, it would be nice but not likely. The initial trade in was to reward the people who jumped on board when many considered them a scam and put money down sight unseen. The upgrade was to give them the camera they were promised in the first place the epic and reward them for helping develop the camera through testing and feedback(some could call it unfair I call it life"I would have put money down"). I believe it has been said that the modules are now that upgrade program. Now they may give some kind of discount or incentive to trade in a good condition scarlet for a certain percentage of the purchase of a new brain, but no where near the 100% for the Red one trade in. Though considering all the deals and freebies, upgrades, RedcineX, I understand if they don't they're already pretty generous.

Keep on shooting!

 

[Peter Moretti]

... Most feature films made (to date) do not have any shots longer than 60 seconds...

In terms of cuts, i.e. what we see on the screen, yes I'd agree. I terms of shots, i.e., how long the camera rolled for, I don't think that's accurate.

But kind of similar to your idea, I mentioned quite a while ago that I wish Red came out w/ a camera called the "Red Head." It would be an S35 PL Mount MOS (no sound) camera, with only one frame rate 23.976 (or true 24P if that made more sense) that recorded only 4K Redcode at one data rate, had HDMI out and some timecode functionality. No zoom, no touch screen (no screen at all), no AF, just a few buttons for: on/off, start/stop, ISO, etc..

The idea is to keep the camera and firmware as simple as possible, thus making it relatively inexpensive and robust.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

A sensor-upgrade would be more than a nice little surprise. I'm sure we will get a few nice little surprises, but honestly, don't expect something like a new sensor. It will not happen, the design is final and i think 3k is fine for now.

We will see how good its output is compared to upcoming 4k-cameras from Canon and other companies. I don't expect Scarlet to fall extremely behind them.

Yep, this was only hoping the upgraded the sensor spec in the long delay period. The 3k sensor is also new, preproduction then, so it would have been an easier choice back then.

..and JVC's looked like there already released pro-sumer camera. I'd take 3K with higher frame rates with REDS design over the same old prosumer camera design JVC looked to be creating.

But for 90% of real non cinema buyers, the prosumer one with shd will probably be good enough, as long as they don't price it high. Given a choice between the two at same price and res it would probably be easy to eventually convince them to abandon JVC's pro service and support.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Update:

Update:

It appears that there might be a revision in the Scarlet and or Epic-S ranges. So, it might be possible some things mentioned here are coming forwards. Scarlet 1.0 might turn out like 1.5 or 2.0 .

After a number of teaser threads by Jim, which are most annoying as they just went through the process of telling us they were not saying anything until release, then tell us something but not announce anything. The new possible release date for the scarlet has come and gone without an real update and no real.update on the Epic-S. In the roadmap thread they did not mention Epic-S, but in threads Jim has mentioned big changes and to trust them that changes to cameras would be for the better. As predictable, the Epic-S fan boy club has originally been going a bit paraniodly excited over this, about the prospect of the Epic-S being cancelled.

I have noted recently, my long held belief that the whole spread of models and inclusion of s35 model as not the best (due to diffusion of customer's focus, shortening of volume, and direct competition to the main Epic lines). That only one larger format model with multi format lens adaptors is needed, and two if fixed is included.

A product is meant to compete in the market it will be released into, not the market at time of announcement or before. Even at announcement it was intuitive that the clear, dominating, advantage of 3k would be drawing to a close after release. Ussually you would not want to announce a model until you are well and truly on track in developing it, and within around 6 months of delivering it. It was unusual to see the scarlet announced and delayed so much, as I understand they had talked about it years beforehand and I would have presumed would have been working on it to get ready. The delays have seen the markets go forwards. and now even the people in the forums are starting to say that 4k is the target resolution needed. Let's hope the 3k resolution was some sort of elaborate ruise on the competition, to make them think Red was delivering something much less than they were really planning to.

The prospects are this, it is not too expensive to develop with a few prototype 3k sensors, then to move in the 4k sensor for finale in product testing and production. However, given that 3k was the real original plan, it is likely that a heap of them were ready earlier this year for after the planned NAB launch at great expense, and you have bucklies of seeing them scrapped. However, an option if they did want to move up in resolution, but still use those sensors, is to use them on one model while moving the others up.

We wait to see the reality of what is actually planned.

Anyway, another thread has opened up on scarlet 2.0.

www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63276-Scarlet-quot-II-quot-For-those-of-us-in-the-dark