Scarlet 2/3" vs. Sony EX1/EX3 low light

[Jesper Sichlau]

All these people just 'waiting' for that camera to make their masterpiece.

Oh Gee, let me go out and spend 10K on a camera. Shoot stuff wait 4 month and feel like a complete ass... dude at this point it's just common sense to wait and see what Red will deliver. 12 months ago it was just common sense because I couldn't even afford a HV20. Don't forget that the Scarlet camera has been 'just around the corner' for about a year.

 

[David Rasberry]

Don't forget that the Scarlet camera has been 'just around the corner' for about a year.

More like two years now.

 

[rafael de]

The Scarlet is the first camera an Indie can truly produce something that, to an audience is more akin to what they are used to seeing at a professional level. A better dynamic range to work with and the power of raw at our finger tips.

How do you know this? The camera hasn't been released. There's no realistic footage. It's very hard to take any comments seriously with quotes like this. I feel like I am in a parallel universe.

To an outsider you know these comments sound insane right?

 

[David Rasberry]

How do you know this? The camera hasn't been released. There's no realistic footage. It's very hard to take any comments seriously with quotes like this. I feel like I am in a parallel universe.

To an outsider you know these comments sound insane right?

The 2/3" sensor exists and has been demonstrated. It shares the same technology as the new M-X S35 sensor. We have seen 16mm sized crops of 2k footage shot with 16mm and 2/3" video lenses on R1. We have followed the constant updates and improvements in Red's software technologies, including downloading raw clips and Red's free software tools and trying them out.
Based on Red's delivered performance so far I am confident that they will deliver a truly exceptional product.

 

[rafael de]

Apologies. I have to restrain my expectation. I'm looking at it as if it's a traditional tech release with footage available shortly before the release, which is confusing because of all the info I thought it had been released.

Frustrating that's all. I would love to invest in something that will last more than a couple of years and not feel exploited by a large company. Thanks for the patient response.

 

[Robert Jackson]

I fear the Scarlet 2/3" may not be a good low light camera. It'll be awesome for a lot of other stuff, though!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

It should be *way* easier to pull focus on the 2/3" Scarlet than the S35 Scarlet, too. Which means indie guys without someone to pull focus for them can operate the camera solo without too much effort.

 

[James Brundige]

Today, the EX-1 is far better than the Scarlet, because it exists.

When the Scarlet becomes a camera, we will see if Red can implement any of the very user-friendly features of the EX-1. I still use my EX-1 over my Red one for anything sync, or fast moving situations. Audio is way better. Way faster to focus and expose. Way lighter. Way easier to power.

I only use the Red when I have time to set up, and picture is more important than sound - mostly B-roll. For interviews and documentary situations, the Sony looks fine. And I just premiered a show on a 35 foot screen (at 1080i) and no one could tell which was which.

The Red does deliver a better image when I really dig deep into color correction, which is why I hope they can make a camera that is lighter, faster, and easier to use in situations where "do that again" is not an option. The I/O section of the new cameras still does not have pots, so additional outboard gear is needed. I assume the fixed scarlet will have an auto-iris ability? And zoom control? All the stuff that has been on betacams (not cool to mention in this forum) for 20 years, and is really important to solo shooters like myself. The usability of these functions has been refined by Sony into the small cameras, and Red still has a lot of catching up to do in that department.

I'm rooting for Red, for a variety of reasons. I hope and assume they will take the EFP community seriously. It's not as sexy as features, but it's a big, important market.

 

[Robert Jackson]

I still use my EX-1 over my Red one for anything sync, or fast moving situations. Audio is way better. Way faster to focus and expose. Way lighter. Way easier to power.

It has a lot of convenient features, too. I love the "Shot Transition" function on the EX. It seems really handy. I don't know how many times I've been doing coverage where I suddenly realized I really needed a second pair of hands to do the move properly and didn't have them. "Shot Transition" seems like it would be that second pair of hands in a lot of situations.

 

[David Rasberry]

When the Scarlet becomes a camera, we will see if Red can implement any of the very user-friendly features of the EX-1. I still use my EX-1 over my Red one for anything sync, or fast moving situations. Audio is way better. Way faster to focus and expose. Way lighter. Way easier to power.



The Red does deliver a better image when I really dig deep into color correction, which is why I hope they can make a camera that is lighter, faster, and easier to use in situations where "do that again" is not an option. The I/O section of the new cameras still does not have pots, so additional outboard gear is needed. I assume the fixed scarlet will have an auto-iris ability? And zoom control? All the stuff that has been on betacams (not cool to mention in this forum) for 20 years, and is really important to solo shooters like myself. The usability of these functions has been refined by Sony into the small cameras, and Red still has a lot of catching up to do in that department.

I'm rooting for Red, for a variety of reasons. I hope and assume they will take the EFP community seriously. It's not as sexy as features, but it's a big, important market.

The classic Betacam ENG/EFP style camera is highly refined, near perfect for its purpose IMHO. There are many styles of shooting where the smaller sensor is a superior choice over 35mm, especially run and gun solo shooting.
However the only use I ever made of auto iris was to set an initial exposure and lock it for the scene, even shooting news. Hate the shift in scene values when the auto iris responds unnecessarily to changes in shadow or highlight areas on camera moves.
With the exceptional dynamic range of the new cameras, auto iris won't be of much use to me.

 

[Steve Gibby]

There are certain run n' gun and mobile non-hardlined EFP production situations, even when using high-end EFP cameras, where auto iris (and sometimes auto focus) is not only very useful, but is downright necessary. Here are a few examples:

Non-hardlined EFP television coverage of certain alternative sports, such as surfing, snowboarding, skiing, kite surfing, wakeboarding, Jet Ski, etc. What all of these have in common is extremely rapid changes in lighting progressively through shot sequences, as white water blooms/subsides, sun catches snow surfaces, etc. There is absolutely no way to effectively do manual racking of an iris ring through shot sequences like that - thus auto iris is routinely used.

So what is the traditional camera technique with high end EFP/ENG cameras that us professional shooters of those genres use? If shooting from the shoulder, its left hand on the focus ring, right hand on the servo-zoom for start/stop and rocker switch use - and definitely using auto-iris for exposure. If on tripod, its usually right hand on a combo servo-zoom rocker/ record switch on the tripod handle, left hand racking the focus ring, and auto iris enabled.

Another example with a Scarlet-sized camera would be the special I produced/directed at the NFL Super Bowl XXIX in Jacksonville a few years ago. It was for standard definition national TV, and we needed extreme mobility. Rather than fight for camera positions with the hundreds of other full-sized EFP/ENG camera operators, I opted to use a Sony VX2000 equipped with a Century wide converter, small sun gun on top, dual UHF wireless receiver and short shotgun mic on an L bracket, and the whole rig mounted on top of a Varizoom pistol grip, which gave me start/stop and rocker zoom capability from the grip. All week we were in super-mobile environments - peripheral events, then on the field at the end of the game and in the Patriot's locker room after the game. In those fast moving environments I made extensive use of auto iris and auto focus. Time and again I got creative angle shots that the big rig guys could only dream of. In fact, I got continual comments from full-sized camera crews like "Hey what have you got there?", and "Man, I wish I had your rig's capability to get high and low angles!". The tool choice, accessories, and certain auto features enabled me to produce a very creative, award-winning production.

All of the above said, a well-balanced cinematographer/videographer/photographer knows exactly when to use auto features and when not to use them. Those who work in a broad range of production genres develop a commensurately broad array of skill sets. The slow, methodical "Hmm, I think we ought to put the light stand over there" or "Where should we focus this shot?" approach has its place in certain genres of production - but in other fast-paced genres using some auto features on the camera simply makes the best sense to get the shots you need. Does using auto features of a camera make someone "less" of a shooter? No - it makes them a "smart" shooter who knows how to maximize their equipment to get each shot they need.

If Epic and Scarlet are designed to be scalable, flexible, maximum-utility camera systems, then available auto features like AF, auto iris, etc. are necessary components that diversify the utility and revenue generation capabilities of the cameras - and significantly spreads the range of potential customers for those cameras.

There will be no "right" way to accessorize and use an Epic or Scarlet, but merely a "right' way for each shot sequence or production. The main challenge for users of Epic and Scarlet will be for their attitudes and skill sets to be broad enough to match the capabilities of the cameras.

BTW, I've also used an EX1 quite a bit for certain productions. In skilled hands it is a very capable tool. That said, when they are available, I expect a fixed lens Scarlet with a 2x extender and a wide converter to be my camera system of choice for those same productions.

Bottom line:
Thanks Red for incorporating the auto features on Epic and Scarlet. There are tons of us out here who will use them extensively in certain genres of production - and then shoot all-manual when thats the best choice for a shot sequence. I have loved shooting with my all-manual Red One cameras, but I definitely look forward to the diverse features of Epic and Scarlet that truly unlock new vistas of scalability, flexibility, and utility - including the new auto features. As needed, I'll be able to shoot all manual, part auto, and full auto.

Parting thought: I can't wait to match Epic and Scarlet with the new Red Electronic Lenses. I have a very good feeling about that combo

 

[Lee Saxon]

The 2/3" sensor exists and has been demonstrated. It shares the same technology as the new M-X S35 sensor. We have seen 16mm sized crops of 2k footage shot with 16mm and 2/3" video lenses on R1. We have followed the constant updates and improvements in Red's software technologies, including downloading raw clips and Red's free software tools and trying them out.
Based on Red's delivered performance so far I am confident that they will deliver a truly exceptional product.

I trust them too and am waiting for a Scarlet too, but it's not the same tech/design as the S35 sensor. The 2/3" sensor will have significantly smaller photosites than the M-X S35/FF35 sensors. It's not just a given that the quality, in particular low light performance ie that Leo cigar shot, will be of the same level.

 

[Gerald Menclik]

Bottom line:
Thanks Red for incorporating the auto features on Epic and Scarlet. There are tons of us out here who will use them extensively in certain genres of production - and then shoot all-manual when thats the best choice for a shot sequence. I have loved shooting with my all-manual Red One cameras, but I definitely look forward to the diverse features of Epic and Scarlet that truly unlock new vistas of scalability, flexibility, and utility - including the new auto features. As needed, I'll be able to shoot all manual, part auto, and full auto.

Absolutely right, I've nothing more to add ...:yesnod:

 

[Leland Krane]

Since the DSlR's are the real way to compare low light sensitivity with the RED why are you focusing on "grain" when you should be talking about signal to noise ration

 

[David Rasberry]

Since the DSlR's are the real way to compare low light sensitivity with the RED why are you focusing on "grain" when you should be talking about signal to noise ration

Fair enough. I monitor new developments in electronic design as part of my job.
In the 3 years since Red 1 was released, improvements in semi-conductor design and fab processes has increased the underlying signal to noise ratio of new chips by at least 10dB over the previous generations. This applies to all types of sensors and DSP chips as well as photographic sensors.
In photometric terms this is equivalent to around a 2 stop improvement in dynamic range over previous generations. You see this in the new DSLR's and in the new M-X Red sensor too.
Dan Hudgins , posted a thread busting the myth that small pixels are inherently noisier than large ones, demonstrating that for pixel sizes between about 3 and 7 microns there is no reaal difference in SNR for the same sensor technology.
Larger sensors do have advantages in SNR over smaller ones, for the same pixel and chip fab process. For the difference between S35 and 2/3" this should be around one stop everything else being equal.
This is about where I expect 2/3" Scarlet to fall in relation to M-X Epic, Given that M-X in R1 conversions is still using the old FPGA processors, there is probably still a bit of improvement to come with the new gen procs too.
In a test report in HD pro magazine, Sony's new 2/3" FW800 CineAlta camera tested out to around 13 stops DR at 800 ISO. I expect Scarlet will be very close to this, but even if it meets the original target of 11-1/2 stoops it will be a superb camera.