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Scarlet 2/3" vs. Sony EX1/EX3 low light

Andrew Rieger

Andrew Rieger

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Any idea how the sensor of the Scarlet 2/3" will compare to the sensor of the Sony EX1/3? I know the RED sensor is a little bigger but I am looking looking for any predictions on what level the RED sensor is capable of before noise starts to show up. EX1 users says that the cam can shoot at 6db with little to no grain. Not sure what this translates to in ISO value, any idea?

Basically, I am looking for some info on the low light capabilities of the 2/3" chip. There are a number of tests of the s35 Mysterium X but not real ideas about the 2/3".
 
Check out the "DiCaprio Match images" That's what you can get on a scene lit with just a match.

Try that with an EX1 and you'll have the best answer anyone outside of RED can give you.

Don't just notice the exposure, but also the noise and color characteristics of the image.

Also remember the RED footage is RAW, so you can still work on it and get more from that very clip.

Its a different ball game.
 
The EX3 sensor is about ISO400 (tested it in December).
But I'd say it's also a matter of shutter speed on the video camera.
The movie District 9 was partially shot with an EX1 so check it out if you can.
All the shots in which they go from outside into houses, you can notice they touch the gain switch.
I'd say that EX1/EX3's sensors are not as good as Red's in low light performance.
 
Bastien Tribalat said:
The EX3 sensor is about ISO400
Click to expand...

Yes, that is the generally agreed upon exposure index for an EX1 at -3dB gain with standard gamma, at 1080p. With the same setup at 1080i its rated closer to EI800. (I've never used it that way oddly.)

I almost always shoot the EX1 with a 35mm adaptor, and we rate that at EI 250. (200 if the scenes are dark)

My point is that you can set up the EX1 all sorts of ways, and that affects its EI as well as the picture quality.
 
I have indeed seen the clip with DiCaprio and the match but that represents the low light capabilities of the S35 sensor, not the 2/3" sensor. Yes both sensors use the same tech but they are different sizes and the sensor size has a great deal to do with the overall sensitivity.

I imagine the low light of the 2/3" will be less than the S35 but how much is what I am trying to figure out.

I am really developing an interest in shooting with available light and while this is totally possible with the S35 chip, I am wondering if similar capabilities can be found in the 2/3" cam. I don't want to spend an additional $4000 just to get better low light. As of now, I am positive that the 2/3" cam will suit all of my needs in terms of fps, dof and form factor but I still hold reservations on the low light abilities compared to the new upgraded RED One's and the Canon DSLR's.

It is a little frustrating because the RED team has spent a great deal of time hyping the abilities of the S35 chip (which are jaw-dropping!), and due to the Mysterium X name on the 2/3" chip, many assume that the low light capabilities of the upgraded RED's represent the potential of the cheaper Scarlet's, which may not be the case (as much as I would like that to be true).

I am hoping that we will see footage from the 2/3' Scarlet within the next couple of weeks. It seems like we have been waiting for eternity :(
 
I already have my heart set on RED. Besides, the EX1/3 are in the $7000 range, so I would just go with the Scarlet S35 instead if I had that type of money. All I am trying to do is find a current cam that can give us a good idea of what we can expect to get out of the 2/3" chip in terms of low light. Until we have actual RED footage, we are just shooting in the dark, no pun intended :)
 
I should have specified the interchangeable lens Scarlet. The fixed only goes down to around T 2.4.
 
You just said that you "don't have the money" for a Sony EX1R/EX3, so how are you going to afford an interchangeable lens Scarlet package? That's around the same price, if not more, around $10,000 by the time you are done getting basic accessories, modules, and a lens.
 
Back to the original point...

Back to the original point...

No offense, guys but let's try to be productive with this thread, eh? I feel like we have gotten away from Andrew's original concern here.

I think we would ALL like to see some 2/3" scarlet footage as soon as possible. Andrew, I think it's awesome that you brought this to light. If low light footage from the scarlet 2/3" chip turns out grainy, wouldn't someone one just go buy a new EX3 if the main thing you want in a camera is low-light capability? Maybe.

I'd love to see some clips of the scarlet 2/3". And if we all ask nice enough... who knows!?! The s35 looks amazing but it would be nice to see some 2/3" footage from red. I'd bet on it being much better than the EX3.

-Ryan
 
Andrew Rieger said:
EX1 users says that the cam can shoot at 6db with little to no grain.
Click to expand...

This statement is not accurate.

I own a Sony EX3 (same as EX1 in every technical way), and I can tell you that a gain of 6db will give you a decent amount of grain in many situations. A gain setting of 3bd could be described as "little to no grain", but not db6.

Interestingly enough, the EX1/3 is unique in that a gain setting of -3bd does not give you any addition of image sharpness, like some other camera systems.

As I am sure you know, the EX3 has a 1/2" sensor. The 2/3" Scarlet will obviously contain a larger sensor. This is a major advantage in several ways. It will certainly give you more ability to get a specific depth of field.

With that said, the EX3 is an amazing camera, and it makes a beautiful image. It is durable and versatile. In eight months time, my Sony EX3 has paid for my RED One camera.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
Check out the "DiCaprio Match images" That's what you can get on a scene lit with just a match.

Try that with an EX1 and you'll have the best answer anyone outside of RED can give you.
Click to expand...

Scarlet 2/3" has ONE FIFTH the sensor size of what was used for that test.

So I'd expect five times the amount of noise. Eg around ISO 200/320? Add onto that: the EX1 has a faster lens.

I fear the Scarlet 2/3" may not be a good low light camera. It'll be awesome for a lot of other stuff, though!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Its all guesswork until RED shows 2/3" stills and/or footage.

Comparing to the S35 is the best anyone outside of RED can do to evaluate future performance of the 2/3" Mysterium-X.

And, yes, it is a total wild ass guess. If you want a "real" answer you are going to have to wait until we have the cameras in hand.

As to your point re 2/3" vs S35, the sensor technology is the same, so that will be similar.

The sensor size is NOT the limiting factor in light gathering. Its the photosite size. The 2/3" sensor is physically smaller, but it also has far fewer photosites. As a result, there is a very good chance the photosites will be similar in size. Given the realities of chip manufacture, the photosites will probably be identically sized.

In fact it wouldn't surprise me if the 2/3" Scarlet sensors are "cut out" of defective Scarlet S35 sensors that meet certain criteria then run through QA again. It would make sense in terms of increasing manufacturing efficiencies. Wastage is a cold hard fact of semiconductor manufacture. A scheme like this could have a great deal to do with the low prices we have for Scarlet cameras.

So, again, the best anyone outside of RED can give you at this time is to compare to the RED One with Mysterium X.

That comparison is just a guess, an uneducated one at that, and it comes with a ton of caveats.

So, if you need better data, then you are going to have to wait.
 
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A super cheap Scarlet Package can be had for under $6500 if you get just the minimum to shoot with and rent the rest. Besides who would ever get the EX1 over a Scarlet? I was just looking for a current sensor to get an idea of what to expect from from the Scarlet in terms of low light.

Bare Bones Minimum:

Body: $2750
5" LCD: $1600
Redmote: $550
Side CF Module: $500
Side Handle: $950

Buy a Zoom H4N for audio, rent a set of miniprimes and you are good to go assuming you have stuff like a shotgun mic, mattebox, tripod, rails.

Still comes in cheaper than the EX1, you just need to compromise and avoid the expensive modules and rent lenses.

I am not trying to decide between the two, Scarlet beats the EX1. I am just trying to guesstimate the low light abilities of a 2/3" sensor compared to that of a S35 chip.
 
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Andrew Rieger said:
EX1 users says that the cam can shoot at 6db with little to no grain. Not sure what this translates to in ISO value, any idea?
Click to expand...

I didn't notice this before.

First off the EX1 is always grainy. It get unacceptable for cinema work, to my eyes & depending on the shooting situation, at about +6dB gain. I prefer to shoot at -3dB gain, although another operator I work with suggested there was no benefit to -3db over 0dB.

As far as ISO rating, the EX1's ISO rating is quite variable depending on the settings. I mentioned elsewhere that the EX1 is ISO400 at -3db 1080/24p.

At +6db its about ISO 800 if I recall. I never shoot it that way though, so ... don't bet the farm on that number.

My advice, rent or borrow an EX1 and set up a test, and rate it against your light meter.
 
I have seen EX1 footage shot at 6db that was acceptable without being distracting, as someone said earlier, 3db is probably better if you want noise free. If 6db is acceptable and that translates to ISO 800 (if you are correct) than hopefully the Scarlet can at least be noise free or useable at ISO 800 which would be great. Using noise reduction like the Foundry's Furnace Core, can extend that into the ISO 1000+ range but there is no doubt that ISO 1600 will not look anything like Offhollywood's ISO 1600 upgraded RED footage which is spectacular considering the light available.
 
Andrew Rieger said:
A super cheap Scarlet Package can be had for under $6500 if you get just the minimum to shoot with and rent the rest. Besides who would ever get the EX1 over a Scarlet? I was just looking for a current sensor to get an idea of what to expect from from the Scarlet in terms of funding.

Bare Bones Minimum:

Body: $2750
5" LCD: $1600
Redmote: $550
Side CF Module: $500
Side Handle: $950

Buy a Zoom H4N for audio, rent a set of miniprimes and you are good to go assuming you have stuff like a shotgun mic, mattebox, tripod, rails.

Still comes in cheaper than the EX1, you just need to compromise and avoid the expensive modules and rent lenses.
Click to expand...

<blink>

Really? Buy the camera and rent all the lenses?

That's bass ackwards.

The lenses are the important part here!

I understand budget and all that. If that's your situation I seriously recommend buying the 2/3" fixed.

If you really want the interchangeable 2/3" then for goodness sake spring for the lenses too!

If neither make sense for your budget, then hold your funds and rent the entire camera kit when you need it.

Your current plan forces you to rent in order to use the camera, so if you just rent the whole kit, you can use your money for post and other stuff.

Even if you own the camera and are entirely self produced on all your shows, you'll spend more "film making" time in post. A RED Rocket would be nice, for example. So would all the "other" stuff you mention. A good tripod can last you until we are all shooting with a RED Holocamera, with a really neat-o "no mysteries left" sensor.

Just sayin' ...
 
I would buy one miniprime to practice and then rent the rest of the set when it was time for a big project. Not trying to make money off of the gear. I just have a passion for filmmaking and want to shoot shorts and festival films.

I imagine serious narrative filmmaking would be difficult with the fixed. Limited lens range and slow lens would be difficult to get around.

I am not sure why I would buy a whole miniprime set. That would set me back like $6000. Besides, all of the accessories I listed can be used on the S35 so if I were to upgrade the body down the road, I would be stuck with a bunch of miniprimes that I would need to sell.

For regular stuff, I use a DSLR so the RED is only for special stuff and renting nice lenses makes sense. I would not get my moneys worth out of a set of lenses I purchased. By one prime to learn the cam and I can get the rest on a project by project basis.
 
Andrew Rieger said:
I imagine serious narrative filmmaking would be difficult with the fixed. Limited lens range and slow lens would be difficult to get around.
Click to expand...

Well, the lens isn't super fast, but its fast enough to work with. T/2.9 if I recall correctly.

So, if you are lighting your shoots, then at ISO 640 you only need 16 candles for key. That isn't a lot of light at all. A full flood 650 watt fresnel puts that out at 28 feet.

I don't think that's particularly difficult to work with at all. On 35mm I light to f/2.8 all the time, at ISO's more like 320- on one show I do regularly we often are working at ISO 160 or 200.

I am not sure why I would buy a whole miniprime set. That would set me back like $6000. Besides, all of the accessories I listed can be used on the S35 so if I were to upgrade the body down the road, I would be stuck with a bunch of miniprimes that I would need to sell.
Click to expand...

Well, $6000 is cheap for lenses, but even so you are overestimating. The five MiniPrimes being offered are each $950, based on the 11/30 announcement. That means you are looking at $4750 for a full lens kit.

This of course discounts the possibility of a zoom lens being available.

By the way, the 50mm MiniPrime is T2.9.

Besides, if you buy a 2/3" brain and then later upgrade to S35, well, the 2/3" would still make a VERY good B camera.

Also, you may be overestimating the availability of MiniPrime rentals. If you aren't in a major production city (NYC, LA, Vancouver etc.) I wouldn't count on being able to rent MiniPrimes for a good long while after release.

I've been leaning towards two 2/3" fixed and an S35 recently. My only concern is being able to obtain suitably shallow DoF on the 2/3" fixed, so I'm still considering a pair of 2/3" interchangeables, with lenses and attendant accessories.
 
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