SAG ULBA / Ultra Low Budget Agreement : Can I get some insight?

[Kholi Hicks]

I've had to research this because our production is about to have to go SAG to use two actors. Seems like going SAG is tough for any production that isn't a studio.

While not revealing the budget for the feature length production, it's well below the ULBA Guideline/Requirement and I'm reading horror stories about security deposits being huge, etc etc.

Not only that, but the part of the contract on DVD and Internet Distribution seems horrendous. I hope I'm not misunderstanding, but it seems like you owe SAG most of whatever you happen to make in the end if not all of what you make.

My distress with the ULBA has nothing to do with Actor's wages or residuals as they deserve every bit, but I think I'm misunderstanding what fees and upgrades, etc are due to the guild itself.

Can someone help me out here? It's kinda scary!

 

[Shawn Booth]

You should talk to your SAG rep. They are there to help you.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Such agreements are available as to allow talented young/Independent and some time no so independent filmmakers, to make films making use of very talented SAG members, there is no outrageous stories, other then those of people which make tone of money and expect not to have to pay any one for it!

There is usually fine print, and not too small either, were it specifically notes of profits margin for the film, and such dividend, if the film gets sold to a Distribution company, then its much simpler, but when self distribution, and or higher profits margin, and not by little, but by Millions, well then I believe it is only fair to share such wealth.

Do your home work carefully, and read more carefully, SAG will be more then happy to present you with any documentation you might come to need, and there are there to truly help you, if you can go always SAG, it pays at the end.

As a side note, but very important, is to be remember that there are so many more regulations when making a film to worry about then those of SAG or other unions, as they are pretty Black on white and very clear.

What you do have to be careful is when having unpaid labor, as they can definitely come back and bite you in the A%@!@ very hard if you do make money, as in theory by law they are also partners of your film, as they have not gotten paid, and therefor have equity in your film, and have the right to a share of its profits.

Bets of luck with the project.

ciao

 

[Kholi Hicks]

You should talk to your SAG rep. They are there to help you.

Because we were never planning on going SAG in the first place there is no REP to talk to. Any info from those experienced with this that they're willing to give would be great appreciated.

Thanks Shawn.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

Such agreements are available as to allow talented young/Independent and some time no so independent filmmakers, to make films making use of very talented SAG members, there is no outrageous stories, other then those of people which make tone of money and expect not to have to pay any one for it!

There is usually fine print, and not too small either, were it specifically notes of profits margin for the film, and such dividend, if the film gets sold to a Distribution company, then its much simpler, but when self distribution, and or higher profits margin, and not by little, but by Millions, well then I believe it is only fair to share such wealth.

Do your home work carefully, and read more carefully, SAG will be more then happy to present you with any documentation you might come to need, and there are there to truly help you, if you can go always SAG, it pays at the end.

As a side note, but very important, is to be remember that there are so many more regulations when making a film to worry about then those of SAG or other unions, as they are pretty Black on white and very clear.

What you do have to be careful is when having unpaid labor, as they can definitely come back and bite you in the A%@!@ very hard if you do make money, as in theory by law they are also partners of your film, as they have not gotten paid, and therefor have equity in your film, and have the right to a share of its profits.

Bets of luck with the project.

ciao

Thanks Ketch. Didn't even see you post right behind Shawn. Again, paying actors and even our core crew wouldn't ever be an issue or question. I think that I'm misreading this agreement but it seems like there are a lot of other hidden costs, especially if Self-Distribution ever comes into play.

Also ran across this: http://www.easy-budget.com/articles/articles.asp?article=ultralow

While not taking this article as any sort of gospel myself, does the writer make any valid points or is it hoo-ha? No disrespect meant to either parties, just trying to get to the bottom of this so that we can move forward.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Thanks Ketch. Didn't even see you post right behind Shawn. Again, paying actors and even our core crew wouldn't ever be an issue or question. I think that I'm misreading this agreement but it seems like there are a lot of other hidden costs, especially if Self-Distribution ever comes into play.

Also ran across this: http://www.easy-budget.com/articles/articles.asp?article=ultralow

While not taking this article as any sort of gospel myself, does the writer make any valid points or is it hoo-ha? No disrespect meant to either parties, just trying to get to the bottom of this so that we can move forward.

Well there are so many different little things that can become really big things, and one of them for me, and the reason why I will never make use of any SAG LBA or ULBA, is because of their control and limitations to how and were you can make use of the footage for [profit, in the case of the ULBA you must sale out right the films to a distribution company, (MOVIE STUDIO) or directly to a Cinema Chain, no other income can come to you by any other means such as self distribution, DVD and or TV, Internet, that will never fly with me.

Any way if you find that can work for you go for it.


In the case of " CHRONICLES of PERSEVERANCE" and "RAPE of a BEAUTY" I have requested and will continue to request Union members a such as SAg, to take a leave of absence from their Guild in order to participate in my films as I will not bend to their rules, unless I have Millions, which I don't at this time, and will not let any one control how aI can distribute or make money on my own Projects.

ciao

 

[Kholi Hicks]

Well there are so many different little things that can become really big things, and one of them for me, and the reason why I will never make use of any SAG LBA or ULBA, is because of their control and limitations to how and were you can make use of the footage for [profit, in the case of the ULBA you must sale out right the films to a distribution company, (MOVIE STUDIO) or directly to a Cinema Chain, no other income can come to you by any other means such as self distribution, DVD and or TV, Internet, that will never fly with me.

ciao

Well this is exactly what I'm talking about? In one breath it's "Do it!" but then the next is "No way would I do it!"

I'm confused now. That's what I said at the beginning of the thread, pretty much. Self Distribution is a no-go under the ULBA. However, I hope I'm misunderstanding a lot of the points and stipulations.

If Self-Distribution percentages are like 3 percent of Wholesale Gross then that's not bad. But what else is there to it that makes it horrific enough to have to ask an actor to take a leave of absence from the Guild?

 

[Adil Lahoulou]

dont be afraid of the ULBA. Look at it as a way to get SAG actors on a nonunion gig. If you intend on making money with your project you'll definitely want to open the agreement. Contact sag about 30 days before shooting and tell them you want to open a ULBA and you only have 2 SAG actors. Your deposit will be calculated to cover they're pension/health contribution essentially. It shouldn't be to big (i think it's something like 16% of payroll - it went up recently with the new contract negotiations so double check ). The day rate you pay your SAG actors will be a minimum of 100/day + 1.5*overtime (up to 10 hours). Going over 10 hours you'll jump up to the next scale rate for the Modified low budget for hours 11 & 12.

DVD/online distribution rolls up to the main contract so you'll be covered under that (which I think is 3-4% shared amongst all SAG actors on the gig - % may have changed with the new negotiated contract). This is a good thing because if the contract doesn't roll up then you'd be required to renegotiate with your talent to release your film. You can imagine renegotiating after the fact can be a death sentence. If you plan on using SAG actors - definitely open up the ULBA. One call to SAG will get you started. In the past its taken us no less than 15 days to get the paperwork signed off and the signatory designation; depending on how many projects are going on it could take longer. Last I heard, SAG only has one ULBA rep in Los Angeles don't know how it is in other states.

Best of luck.

 

[Adil Lahoulou]

You should talk to your SAG rep. They are there to help you.

FYI: when you do talk to the REP make sure to independently verify everything they say. The REP will typically not be an expert on the nimutia of the contract - rather they act as a liason to producers. If ever you feel doubt regarding something the REP says - call SAG and pose your question to the phone rep and they'll route it to a content expert. I had several issues on a production regarding onset security requirements for ULBA that cost me $800 that I never had to spend because my rep misunderstood the rules.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Well this is exactly what I'm talking about? In one breath it's "Do it!" but then the next is "No way would I do it!"

I'm confused now. That's what I said at the beginning of the thread, pretty much. Self Distribution is a no-go under the ULBA. However, I hope I'm misunderstanding a lot of the points and stipulations.

If Self-Distribution percentages are like 3 percent of Wholesale Gross then that's not bad. But what else is there to it that makes it horrific enough to have to ask an actor to take a leave of absence from the Guild?

Sorry if I have further confused you with my answers , it was not my intention, however, this are very confusing manners to take in ones hands, and must never do so, better always include a small budget for an Entertainment Attorney, the paper work will always be the first to kill any Art, and or Artist work or the Artist it self!

I have done extensive reading on this manners but I have not come to the end clear minded, and so I will rely to the experts when times comes, off off course it helps tremendously to know the basic and beyond, but the law is the law, and it must be practiced by those that know it well, very well.

Hire the Union, if you can, they deserve the work, but you must be prepared to pay extra no mater what, there is always extra costs in hiring any Union such as SAG, so if you have the funds, is worth, but if you are really tight, then don't even think about it!

Contacting SAG, if you have the include them, will give you anything you need to get started, even recommendations for Entertainment Attorneys, but they are not chip at all, so depending on the length of your contract and needs it could be several hours of Legal advisory, in turn few thousand dollars of extra spending.

Read wisely the fine lines and make your informed decision on how you like to go about it, Filmmaking unfortunately is not just an ART it is a Business, and as such it brings extensive paper work and legalities like no other business I know, so be prepared for the extra leg work and the paper work with it.

Personally I love Filmmaking so much that no paper work could ever stop me from doing what I love most, just it asks for that extra time to take care of the Tedious paper work.

Again good luck with your film.

ciao

 

[Joe G.]

I was sufficiently scared after reading John Thomas' article, that I posted it to my blog:

The TRUTH about the SAG Ultra Low Budget Agreement

His verdict is to avoid it like the plague.

I heard that there are "right to work" states (Arizona?) that if you film there, the union can't say anything to their members, or something.

All needs research.

 

[Charles Angus]

Call SAG and have them explain anything you are unsure of.

Then call your lawyer, and have them verify things.

 

[Adil Lahoulou]

I was sufficiently scared after reading John Thomas' article, that I posted it to my blog:

The TRUTH about the SAG Ultra Low Budget Agreement

His verdict is to avoid it like the plague.

I heard that there are "right to work" states (Arizona?) that if you film there, the union can't say anything to their members, or something.

All needs research.

just read the article...lots of FUD. Too much to list.

 

[Mark Allen]

I think if you go in unaware of the actualities of the agreement, your experience will be akin to what I think the person who wrote that article must have had. If you go in aware, then you have run numbers of various outcomes and probably thought "Damn... that's pretty severe," but not feel as violated. The fact is that it's a pain. The encorporation of SAG actors is a huge consideration. If they are not adding value to your film, you will absolutely want to reconsider (unless the actor goes financial core). If they are adding value (via talent or or salability) then you just have to bite the bullet.

For example, if you're doing a micro budget movie and had 10 actors you wanted to use and one of them was SAG and didn't want to go financial core or risk changing their name for the part (which is obvious against the rules of SAG, but since you have no contract for them, it's just a risk the actor is taking. I wouldn't advise an actor to do that vs. financial core) - and this person isn't in the imdpro top 200 or something... you should probably reconsider using SAG at all. It's an enormous undertaking.

However, if you're doing a movie and half the actors you want to use and make your movie work are SAG (or one of them is in the top 200 of imdb ratings) - well - it seems like there is so much value there for your film that it becomes worth the trouble and potential expense.

There are a few tiers like this I think independent filmmakers face when they start stepping out from micro budgets. Insurance for equipment or locations is the first one. SAG seems to be the second one.

But the thing you must do is run your numbers. The big problem is when people use the ULBA and then sell for video and then can't go through with the sale because the terms for their sale don't cover the necessary payments. I've not been in this situation, so I can't talk about the details, but I have heard of this scenario - so run the numbers.

Don't let your decision be made because something sounds intimidating. Just reason it out and run the numbers.

BTW Financial core I think removes health insurance rights - which are a huge bonus for SAG members - though I'm not positive on that note.

Also - I would mention that talking about this issue is not about "sharing the wealth" and filmmakers being greedy. I guarantee you 99% of indie filmmakers would be happy to share the wealth if their movie gets sold. It's an issue of temporal and financial logistics. If it were only as simple as "if you make money, you have to share it" - then it would be a gloriously happy thing.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

Also - I would mention that talking about this issue is not about "sharing the wealth" and filmmakers being greedy. I guarantee you 99% of indie filmmakers would be happy to share the wealth if their movie gets sold. It's an issue of temporal and financial logistics. If it were only as simple as "if you make money, you have to share it" - then it would be a gloriously happy thing.

100 percent. It has NOTHING to do with sharing money or being greedy. It's primarily what SAG is gonna do to make life miserable after it's all done.

Unfortunately, avoiding SAG might be the death knell. =(

I'm still doing research and have found a lawyer that'll help out when we've gathered everything for her to look at.

Thanks for the insights.

 

[johnt55]

You'll find a LOT of useful information about the SAG Low Budget Agreements here:

http://www.easy-budget.com/articles/articles.asp?article=ultralow

As always with SAG, be careful before you sign.http://www.easy-budget.com/articles/articles.asp