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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

rodney charters mx and alexa

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PaulClements said:
I don't usually chime in on posts like this because frankly I couldn't give a crap. But something really bugged me about the video when I watched it. Then I realised that it seems that every time the Red monitor path is shown the camera recording the monitor is tilted towards the light altering its auto exposure or the auto exposure is being adjusted. I assume it's an iPhone? I've attached an image showing the change in the environment at around 8 seconds in, 25 seconds and 35 seconds in. Look at the light coming into the top of frame and how much brighter the surrounding paraphenalia becomes. Seeing the differing images side by side certainly makes it clearer so I thought I'd post them.

Whilst I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt something doesn't add up for me. Perhaps it's to get a rise out of people on this board or more cynically to promote Alexa over Red. I'm not sure. But I'd certainly like the camera recording the monitors to have the same exposure throughout.

Paul

EDIT: Perhaps it's not the angle of the phone camera, but it's exposure certainly seems to alter. The last two images might be slightly misleading perhaps because there does appear to be a fairly decent exposure just after. Though I can't be 100%.

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You nailed it Paul,

Maybe not intentional :) :) :)

...but funny method at the least...

Cheers.

Antoine
 
Mark Pugh said:
Back to the Rodney Charters' Vimeo posting:
This offers ammunition against anyone wanting to shoot on a Red to a format with a baked-in look, instead of R3Ds.
If a DP of R.C's caliber, or his ACs, can make a mistake about look-ups on camera (I'm making a presumption there), then heaven help the average user.
To create images with a proxy module that look like this, then have the editors misuse those proxys... it's scary.
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The question I'm asking myself is why would you make public a test where you made a bloody great mistake like that? Surely they would have twigged at some time that they'd muffed it. I'm a total nobody and I wouldn't post a video of me making such a basic mistake - I'd want to keep it quiet. Unless there was an ulterior motive...:icon_bs:

I understand the whole thing about not criticising a respected DP but this is not a respectable move. RC or his AC need to post some R3Ds to clarify what happened here.
 
I deeply disapprove of all the comments about Mr. Charters claiming there is some bias, or that he's a paid shill.

Its unprofessional, and everyone who made such comments should be ashamed.

I do think Mr. Charters test isn't worthy of the name. I think he knows it too... he was just goofing around and saw something he didn't understand that was interesting.

What I understand in looking at the result is that RED One's video tap is crap... and RED One no longer offers a REC 709 monitoring mode.

So... that means that you never see on the monitor what people expect to see on a monitor- i.e. the picture as its intended to look.

The various monitoring options have all been chose to represent to the operator, DIT and DP all sorts of "false color" information they can use to think about the "REDCODE negative" they are trying to create.

That's painful BS for a production digital camera.

So, my interpretation of Charter's "test" is that RED needs to stop lollygagging and get a real top notch REC709 HD-SDI signal out their HD-SDI ports.

That's a full 720p 10 bit 4:2:2 REC 709 image, one that can be recorded if the user wishes and used for dailies or offline editing if desired- or heck even 720p delivery if the user desires.

On EPIC, Scarlet and future cameras, that should be a 3G HD SDI, with 10 bit 4:4:4 1080p coming out at full quality. If the user so desires, they should be able to plug in an outboard recorder and deliver from that.

Its not "the RED way," but its an important tool for us to have in production.

Charters agrees with me so wholeheartedly he never even imagined that a company would bother to pipe some non-standard "false color" image format out the HD-SDI when every other camera on the planet pipes out REC709 video.

So, please RED, can we have a REC709 video output option for the RED One? Can you make sure that we have one on the Epic, Scarlet and any other future RED cameras? I want it, and so does Rodney Charters.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
What I understand in looking at the result is that RED One's video tap is crap....
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I totally disagree. The camera output settings in the test are at issue, not the video tap.

For me "acquisition gamma" and "presentation gamma" are two VERY different things.
 
Jesus Christ. Put it to rest. There is over 17 pages about a little internet video. If it handles highlights better you should be ready to accept that. All of this talk just sounds like a bunch of excuses. Just wait until he comes out with the post. And by the way, if you didn't think the big dogs were going to already have a bias towards an Arri product, you haven't been in the business long enough.
 
Michael Epple said:
Jesus Christ. Put it to rest. There is over 17 pages about a little internet video. If it handles highlights better you should be ready to accept that. All of this talk just sounds like a bunch of excuses. Just wait until he comes out with the post. And by the way, if you didn't think the big dogs were going to already have a bias towards an Arri product, you haven't been in the business long enough.
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I think a lot of people will take Mr. Charters' opinion very seriously. Over a 1,000 people have seen it, and you can see it clearly from the comments that several are now convinced that Alexa does indeed offer 3 extra stops of DR.

These people will tell their colleagues "Oh, Rodney did a test. The Alexa is brilliant, it has 3 more stops DR than Epic!". There's a lot of misinformation about RED already, and it is understandable that RED owners (particularly rental owners) would feel concerned that videos like this creates further misinformation and FUD.

Perhaps it is best if Rodney took the video offline. Clearly, it is not a meaningful test with lots of unanswered variables. We can wait for the results through post.
 
I don't get why he didn't bother switching to RAW view to see what was there in the highlights. Anyone who's shot with the Red for a day knows to do this, if there's any question about losing detail in overexposure.
It would have taken a lot less effort loading the shot in Redcine-X, let alone posting this clip to Vimeo.

I'm sorry if anyone's posted anything to offend R.C., but no-one had a gun to his head to make him post this clip on Vimeo.
 
PaulClements said:
I don't usually chime in on posts like this because frankly I couldn't give a crap. But something really bugged me about the video when I watched it. Then I realised that it seems that every time the Red monitor path is shown the camera recording the monitor is tilted towards the light altering its auto exposure or the auto exposure is being adjusted. I assume it's an iPhone? I've attached an image showing the change in the environment at around 8 seconds in, 25 seconds and 35 seconds in. Look at the light coming into the top of frame and how much brighter the surrounding paraphenalia becomes. Seeing the differing images side by side certainly makes it clearer so I thought I'd post them.

Whilst I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt something doesn't add up for me. Perhaps it's to get a rise out of people on this board or more cynically to promote Alexa over Red. I'm not sure. But I'd certainly like the camera recording the monitors to have the same exposure throughout.

Paul

EDIT: Perhaps it's not the angle of the phone camera, but it's exposure certainly seems to alter. The last two images might be slightly misleading perhaps because there does appear to be a fairly decent exposure just after. Though I can't be 100%.

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This test is a JOKE ! Look at the photo again...
When they switch to Red the exposure of the witness cam change so much that we cant see the plywood anymore on the table, nor the concrete floor and the monitor frame turn pink instead of black.
 
Gino Papineau said:
When they switch to Red the exposure of the witness cam change so much that we cant see the plywood anymore on the table, nor the concrete floor and the monitor frame turn pink instead of black.
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Well the camera that comes out worst in this test is the iPhone,
because when the monitor switched to the Red, the iPhone's auto-iris keeps the highlights badly overexposed,
all the way through the pan to the two cameras sitting next to each other,
then back to the monitor, until the monitor is switched back to the Alexa,
when the overall iPhone exposure suddenly looks good again.

Rodney should be getting his money back on that iPhone.
 
I just tweeted this to Rodney:

"My Red MX has 1+ stops more DR than Canon or Nikon still RAW (11-12 stops). So if Alexa has 3 stops more than Red it's 15 stops"
 
In this other promotional video he's made for Arri (I can't think of another reason he's bothered to make and post it) - please correct me... http://vimeo.com/10519628
He compares the Alexa favorably Red and to the F35, saying the F35 is weak in the highlights.

Has he done a test between the Alexa and F35? Just asking, because the F35 is very good in the highlights, in my experience.

If someone wants to so freely express his opinion of things on the internet, I hope he can freely disclose any benefits he may receive from expressing those opinions.
I don't think any Red Camera user has ever received even a free coffee mug for saying something nice about Red's products. I hope Rodney's in the same situation with regard to Arri. If he is sponsored in any way, he should say so.

Just wondering.
 
There is no need to attack anyone personally or question their motives. Let's stick strictly to the facts here. The bottom-line facts are all that really matter.

I am sponsored by Canon. Does that mean everything I say about Canon cameras is worthless?
 
Tom Lowe said:
There is no need to attack anyone personally or question their motives. Let's stick strictly to the facts here. The bottom-line facts are all that really matter.

I am sponsored by Canon. Does that mean everything I say about Canon cameras is worthless?
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Didn't mean to offend R.C, or yourself, Tom.
Hell - you just compared Red Raw favorably to Canon. That's quite a different tone to what's coming from R.C.'s videos.
I guess I'm hoping that his posts come from a genuine place, and not based on undisclosed alliances.
 
I get nothing from Red nor will I ever except anything even when i buy one of their products(except for customer service and the product itself). Though I will still comment on how this test is horribly inaccurate and misleading. I am just starting out in the industry and if critiquing Rodney will damn me for the rest of my career so be it. I am and I believe others like me are in no way attacking his abilities as a DP/director, though I don't feel I should have to hold back my comments just because of that. Really do we all want suck ups around us once we get established telling us we are making pure gold, when all we're doing is pumping out shit(not saying Rodney is). No matter how you look at it, a video tap test a DR test, it was not done right plain and simple.

have a good night and happy filming.
 
Ok guys... i think this thread has gone in enough circles.. closing it down.
 
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