RGB and deliverables

[Stuart English]

Reserved space

Reserved space

So much new information...so many new questions. You mentioned that it always reserves 200MB of space, so I take it that is for the entire media? So in essence I would have 200 MB less of formatted space on my CF's and RED DRIVE? I know it will probably be minimal when it comes down to REDCODE data rates, just curious.

Yes. That's space we know exists so when we come to write Quicktimes reference files. Its a fixed 200GB at the moment, but it really should depend on the capacity of your media and be a % of that. These reference files are pretty small, they point to the RAW data files and contain enough data to tell Quicktime Player how to render this information.

 

[Michael Ragen]

Hey Stuart,
I remember hearing at NAB that you can transcode to Prores on import to FCP. Is it possible to import and transcode 2k or 4k Redcode Raw directly to 1080p Prores?

 

[Steve Freebairn]

Can Adobe software on PC and Mac read the reference files and play them back ok? How is the workflow for clients who are using Adobe?

 

[Zach Hilton]

Yes. That's space we know exists so when we come to write Quicktimes reference files. Its a fixed 200GB at the moment, but it really should depend on the capacity of your media and be a % of that. These reference files are pretty small, they point to the RAW data files and contain enough data to tell Quicktime Player how to render this information.

Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[Thomas Mathai]

I think it all depends on the deal between the client and the Red owner.

It can be just shoot it and hand over a drive (hopefully a cloned drive) with the RAW camera source.

This would be like a camera man shooting film and giving the exposed film cans to the producer to have someone else worry about.

On the other hand, it can be beneficial for the Red owner to provide additional services to the producer like pretiming and transcoding Raw media.

In any case, I think all Red owners have to be somewhat post saavy.

I would guess what HVX200 users have been doing for their clients would be similar, since many clients want just MXF files.

 

[stephenlnoe]

Do we actually have any of the raw red media to experiment with (downloadable)? RGB only creates havoc for TV production which requires fast turn around.

 

[REDHKSC]

Stuart,

besides REDCODE w/ RED one camera, will RED One camera on board also support PRO-RES 10bit 4:2:2 as well onto either CF or RED drives ?

Stewart

Yes. That's space we know exists so when we come to write Quicktimes reference files. Its a fixed 200GB at the moment, but it really should depend on the capacity of your media and be a % of that. These reference files are pretty small, they point to the RAW data files and contain enough data to tell Quicktime Player how to render this information.

 

[Häakon]

The advantage in staying RAW is wider color space and higher dynamic range. Its a purer record, with little or no downsides (except for maximum recordable frame rate at 4K RAW v's 2K RGB)

Unfortunately, for many of us, that's a huge downside. For my own personal uses, I could see myself shooting 4K almost exclusively (gives me the best picture with a way to deliver any resolution to a client), but as it tops out at 30p, it's just not going to cut it for everything. 2K RAW allows more flexibility with the framerates (and has the added benefits of being 4x smaller - which means longer record times), but the downside is that it is windowed. I'm really not sure how I want to deal with that one.

I am not as worried about the deliverables as some - I think that clients will adapt just as they quickly have with P2, especially if they are ASKING for RED for a specific project - but I'm just concerned about what it means we're actually losing if we dump the RGB formats.

 

[David Battistella]

Stuart,

besides REDCODE w/ RED one camera, will RED One camera on board also support PRO-RES 10bit 4:2:2 as well onto either CF or RED drives ?

Stewart

Red,

I seriously doubt this. Pro Res is a hardware dependent codec that really needs the full power of an INTEL mac to even use it in FCP. The camera does not shoot in 4:2:2 apple proprietary codecs.

David

 

[Joe Carney]

Can Adobe software on PC and Mac read the reference files and play them back ok? How is the workflow for clients who are using Adobe?

I've asked that question in one form or another several times with no answer.
What will it take to get support for Premier and After Effects on Windows and Mac?
Has Red agreed to some exclusive deal with Apple?

 

[Paul Hazlett]

I am not as worried about the deliverables as some - I think that clients will adapt just as they quickly have with P2, especially if they are ASKING for RED for a specific project - but I'm just concerned about what it means we're actually losing if we dump the RGB formats.

The problem here is the asking part. Most clients would still be shooting
3/4 inch, well maybe not that bad, but I think we will need to do a few dog
and pony shows first to sell them on the idea of red since it will cost more
but there are benefits, sell sell sell.

 

[David Battistella]

However a 4K file is still 4K. Its compressed but still about 4 times the size of HDCAM. That means 4 times the storage and 4 times the throughput on the transcoder.

IBloom

Wait . Wait. Wait.

A REDCODE 4K file can not be compared to HDCAM unless you are only comparing the FRAME size. The data size of the 4K file is only about 27MB/sec which is about the size of 10 bit uncompressed SD. SO IT IS NO WHERE NEAR 4TIME THE SIZE OF HDCAM.

When you capture from an HD CAM tape you have the choice of capturing that to an uncompressed 10 BIT HD signal which is about 165MB/sec. This means that there is actually about six time more number crunching when you are working in a HDCAM uncompressed workflow. If you captured the HDCAM to DVCPRO HD it might be about 14MB/sec.

So working with REDCODE is going to be more like working with DVCPRO HD than it would be working with HDCAM. **although the quality of REDCODE will be far superior**

You have to think of it this way.

You use REDQUICK to put a quicktime wrapper on the file. Your computer sees this media as it does any other QT media. Now you can choose to tell that file to play back at a frame size of your choice. 4K, 2K, 1, K or .5K
Let's say you are editing a proxy of the 1K file. This means you are asking the REDCODE to DECODE the footage at a lower data rate, it does this on the fly, making it more comparable to DVCPRO HD.

The best part of the scenario is that you have shot with all of the latitude and benefits of 4K and the codec does the scaling work for you.

With REdcode enables in FCP 6.0's open timeline, you could actually intercut this footage witha multitude of formats.

David

 

[Poi Boy]

My market is television commercials particularly those shot on film. I think red will be an easy sell to them because they will be able to get as good and better quality with a smaller budget.
Aloha
-A

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Still the RAW

Still the RAW

Throughout these discussions the Red Team has been careful not to quote render times for RedCine - my comments are based on a completely unsupported assumption that by the end of 2007 the rendering will happen in close to real time.

In the world of end of the day deliverables from a data based camera I see three options:

1) the client provides CF cards or RedDrives and has a QuickTime savvy post pipeline. Probably a small portion of the market but you get immediate turnaround, full image quality available plus no need for a data wrangler on set with gear.

2) Tether a deck or DVR to the HD-SDI outs

3) Hire a data wrangler to clone footage onto client supplied drives (or invoice them for the drives you brought just like tape stock) either in RedCode if they can handle it which means standard hard disk transfer times or use RedCine to render out the file types the client specs out. Assuming you pull the CF, RedDrive, etc off the rig every hour or so and are not rolling continuously, I am hoping I can clone the last few takes of the day during the strike.
The two ways I would consider doing this would be either laptop based or full tower depending on the field situation.

Portable: Laptop with eSATA adapter & FW800, 2 disc RAID in a compact enclosure, several RedDrives or CF cards. For power either car DC via inverter or AB bricks, gold mount plate with d-tap to voltage regulators. All packed in a Pelican type case. Could use a "lunch pail" type power supply also. Obviously available AC would make this even easier.

On wheeled cart or in nearby vehicle: Laptop or Tower computer with bigger RAID.

What about the resistance to the cost of the data wrangler? The short answer is that they will save it in post since there is no ingest time but the way many budgets are written that may not help your stressed producer. I will try to sell the data wrangler as someone who can help set up in the morning, lend hands during big moves, repos, turnarounds, etc and can manage video village - YMMV.

Ultimately, unless the RAW to codec of choice render rate is much slower than the RGB to codec of choice render rate why would I give up the advantages of RAW even in fast turnaround shoots?

 

[David Battistella]

but I think we will need to do a few dog
and pony shows first to sell them on the idea of red since it will cost more
but there are benefits, sell sell sell.

How is RED going to cost more than a P2 workflow?

I do not think you should be saying that it is RED, but rather "tapeless" workflows that added many benefits, but also the data transfer and storage problems associated with moving large amounts of DATA.

This is why I think that eventually the CF card will be to RED what the tape is to HDCAM, BETACAM, DIGIBETA, BETA SP, DVCPRO, MINI DV, the disk is to XDCAM, and the E is to Etc, ENG, EFP and L M N O P.

P2 is proving to be the M2 of the digital age. It is cost prohibitive to purchase. It is time consuming to both archive and deal with once it has been shot. Having an external, reliable source of media on the shelf is necessary. Film has this great benefit and so does tape.

If RED wants to extend the camera revolution into POST production then I think it is esential for them to get around this part of tapeless workflows.

RED's biggest push should be for affordable, reliable, inexpensive compact flash media that can be used as the archive. They could really revolutionize post by creating a large demand for fast, inexpensive solid state media that is affordable enough to keep on the shelf.

Shoot ONCE
transfer ONCE
archive ONCE

If the CF media becomes the archive, like tape or film, then we have solved MANY interm problems. We are so close to that now. HOW ABOUT A four BAY CF card reader that attaches to the side of the camera instead of just one card, and the ability to roll over from one card to the other, that is one good thing about P2.

David

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Tapes you have to capture.
Film you have to develop (and telecine)
Data you have to copy (and or transcode).

When you hand of a tape at the end of the day, unless the editor is still using decks and EDLs exclusively (highly unlikely) there is still going to be a step where the data becomes "useful".

If you can get to disposable solid state then you've eliminated copying. And if you can convert enough pieces of software to work natively with REDCode you can also dispose with all of the transcoding. At which point of the three options Data Aquisition is the only option which doesn't have an intermediate step.

It would be absolutely fantastic if REDCine came with a wizard mode where you just hand the editor a copy of REDCine along with the footage and he can choose:

Framerate [24]
reverse-Pulldown and interlace [ ] Advanced [ ]

Resolution:
[ ] SD
[ ] SD (Anamorphic)
[X] 720 HD
[ ] 1080 HD

Codec:
[ ] DV
[ ] DVCPro
[X] DVCPro HD
[ ] Apple ProRes
[ ] DNxHD

------------------
You have chosen to encode the source material (4k RAW @ 24fps) to (24fps 720p DVCPro HD)

[Process]


I think there is going to be a strong desire for a brain dead conversion process.

 

[Häakon]

Fantastic point, Gavin.

 

[Simon Dean]

Am I missing something, because I'm not understanding why you couldn't edit the footage in an NLE directly - given enough power. As someone mentioned, cineform is wavelet based and the codec lets you edit directly in the NLE - that it's whole purpose. So why is there a question over editing the footage directly?

I know on the whole it's more to do with what people are used to, but is it not technically possible, isn't that what we should aim for?

Perhaps I'm being dumb here.

 

[David Battistella]

Am I missing something, because I'm not understanding why you couldn't edit the footage in an NLE directly - given enough power. As someone mentioned, cineform is wavelet based and the codec lets you edit directly in the NLE - that it's whole purpose. So why is there a question over editing the footage directly?

I think the big question might be:

How exactly does RED footage work in FInal Cut Pro?

We know that it REDCODE will be supported in a future release so this has me assuming that ANY red footage with a QT wrapper file can be used as any other CODEC in FCP.

What I am curious about is if FCP can edit the proxy files or whether those files need to be transcoded before being able to edit them?

This would obviously be a huge time saver.

Stuart?

Could you lay out a brief FCP workflow if I shot 4K REDCODE.

David

 

[Johnny Friday]

It would be absolutely fantastic if REDCine came with a wizard mode where you just hand the editor a copy of REDCine along with the footage and he can choose:

Framerate [24]
reverse-Pulldown and interlace [ ] Advanced [ ]

Resolution:
[ ] SD
[ ] SD (Anamorphic)
[X] 720 HD
[ ] 1080 HD

Codec:
[ ] DV
[ ] DVCPro
[X] DVCPro HD
[ ] Apple ProRes
[ ] DNxHD

------------------
You have chosen to encode the source material (4k RAW @ 24fps) to (24fps 720p DVCPro HD)

[Process]

Excellent point and comment. I'm one of many that are "brain dead" and maxed out with keeping up with my software....and prefer to be behind the camera rather than behind the computer---unfortunately time behind the computer is necesarry. So a simple conversion tool makes a lot of sense to a simple minded type like myself: 4k or 2k IN; 1080p, 720p, 2k or 4k raw OUT using codec of mine or my clients choice.

Simple and sweet!