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Resizing clips shot in 4k - HELP

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Rich

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Hey all, does anyone know the best way to resize clips shot in 4k? I'm in the midst of conforming - coverting my R3D 4k files to Prores (HQ) 1920x1080. However I have zoomed into a number of clips and need to figure out the best way to conform those shots without losing resolution. Anyone have any suggestions?

Currently I've been attempting to use Redrushes to transcode the R3D files into full 4k Res MOV's using an uncompressed 10 bit codec. From there I brought the files back in to FCP, matched the resizing to my lower rez files and then exported Prores (HQ) 1920x1080 and then reimported to go with the rest of the files. The workflow works fine, but I'm definitely losing a lot in the resolution.

thanks for your help!
rich
 
i am not sure if fcp can handle 4k at the moment - think there is a 2k maximum.

how long is your movie?

do you access to adobe CS4?

regards,
martin
 
i can bring in the 4k files no problem, but your right - can't export 4k, only 2k and I think that's where i'm losing resolution. I don't have after effects, but I do have Red Cine...haven't quite figured out how to use the program yet, seems a bit complicated. Do you have the ability to reframe after you zoom into the image in Red Cine?

thanks.
 
oh, and the movie is just over 11minutes. I have about 20 or so clips that I've zoomed in on, non longer than 3 to 4 seconds.
 
You can resize in the render out of Red Rushes - there are various resizing options (in terms of algorithms used) - some testing should help determine what is best for your footage.

On the shots you want to zoom in on will have had their size increased by a particular percentage.

Resize the footage you are zooming in on to the PERCENTAGE of 1920x1080 that your have increased the size to that for the conform. E.G if you have resized your shot to 120% of it's original size on the timeline, resize your footage to to 120% of 1920x1080 (2304x1296). You may need to adjust the positioning and will definitely need to remove the zoom in on your timeline, but this should give you a pixel accurate version without any resize calculations going on in the FCP timeline (which you have less control off then the ones in Red Rushes)

EDITED NOTE: This is only for the shots that have the resize, which you are best of doing individually - and reconforming the rest in seperate batch with a straight resize to 1920 x 1080
 
Thanks, sounds like a solution, however, I don't think I fully understand... I see where you can scale down in Redrushes - but it doesn't allow you to change percentages there (to match my percentage in FCP) or re position the shot?
 
You can't in Red Rushes. You do the percentage math yourself, and just type in the pixels you need to end up at for your resized image to be at 1 to 1, and then you you just reposition in your timeline in FCP and remove the resize you did there, to match how it looked on the old timeline.
 
I.E. if your percentage number in FCP is 140%, and your output is 1920 x 1080, then your corresponding render size in Red Alert should be 140% of 1920 x 1080 which is 2688 x 1512
 
ok cool, I get what you are saying in terms of the math and figuring out the percentages. Where I'm losing you is how to reposition once you bring it back into FCP.

Maybe i'm missing something, but the way you laid it out - i'd have the right percentage of the zoom/resize by doing the math in redrushes, but I wouldn't be able to reposition in FCP because I'm already zoomed in before I bring it back in, so essentially the rest of the clip (the portions outside what I zoomed in on) are no longer there and if I moved the clip around I'd be off the frame into black...am I making sense?

Sorry - i'm probably overlooking something pretty basic.

thanks for your help!
 
You've got it backwards. The video you end up creating is LARGER than your project size (1920 x 1080). That means it will extend outside the edges of your canvas frame, and by moving it around you to reposition the part you want to be zoomed in on as the center of the frame.

The zoom has already been accounted for by scaling the original 4K image to an image LARGER than 1920 x 1080, so you turn the zoom off in Final Cut Pro, and just repo to get the framing you want.
 
I think the best way to do it is to render out only the sections you need out of RedCine.

Do you your zoom/crop there and just spit out the 10 seconds at a time that you need.

Easy, works great, you can see exactly what you're doing, and the cleanest way to do it.
 
sometimes you have to walk away from the computer... I get it. Because i am resizing according to the percentage, when I bring it into my timeline that is set for 1920x1080, I will have room to slip and slide the clip to find the exact spot I need to match my resize. Genius. Thanks man, much appreciated.

rich
 
jim, I see how that would definitely save on time - rendering out full takes in red rushes is taking forever and eats up a lot of drive space. I find it difficult to navigate RedCine... would it be same thing I'd be doing in redrushes - accounting for the percentage zoomed in on and then applying that math to the size of the clip i render out, then bring back in to FCP and slip and slide? Or would I actually be repositioning in RedCine?

thanks
 
Advantage in my method is you are allowing a little extra wiggle room to repo your shot, alter your edit once you have done the resize, it's a bit more flexible. REDCINE will crop and zoom your footage for you, so can't go back, but you will only render the exact footage you need, so render will be quicker.

Another advantage is that you can ensure the settings are identical to the other clips for all other factors, which is a bit harder to do if you are using REDCINE and RED RUSHES.

I agree once you know the interface REDCINE would be a fine choice, but doing it in REDALERT is pretty straight forward (only requires some very basic math) and avoids any cross program headaches
 
Thanks! Do you happen to know the max zoom in you can do without losing any quality - if starting in 4k and finishing in 1920x1080? Should be around 200% right?
 
Well, it's a little more complicated than that because of the Bayer sensor etc, so it's probably not exactly a linear calculation in terms of what you end up being able to perceive as 'lower' quality.

Also your focal length/point of focus will probably effect the 'sharpness' of your zoom and crop

I would say 200% is definitely max I would ever go by choice, after that you would definitely see degradation (assuming you shot same aspect as your finishing) but it's probably possible to see degradation much earlier, especially compared to other footage side by side which has been super sampled by scaling down, softness may be introduced in a way that begins to be noticeable anywhere from a 140% increase and up, depending on the original footage. There really probably isn't a hard and fast rule though.

As little as you need to do so you achieve your other needs - that seems to be the best rule - unless you are trying to create a specific/degradated look. Because what you can get away with is sort of a hard line which you just suddenly cross.
 
right on, thanks Craig. I'm having to create coverage for one of my scenes, so that's why I ask. I'm hoping that crushing the blacks/pushing the contrast in the color correction will also help smooth it out.
 
I just thought of something - i could just find the section I need in Red Cine, export that out Full Rez 4k and then bring into FCP and resize there couldn't I? Seems like that would ease the pain of transcoding a whole clip, yet at the same time give me the flexibility to match my low rez clips exactly.
 
Hey Rich, actually you probably couldn't do that, because Final Cut has 4000 by 4000 pixel size limitation and your original is probably 4096 across.

However you could Resize the same way as you would in Red Alert in Redcine, and then export only that portion of the clip, giving you the same result but lower render times, or resize and crop directly in Redcine.
 
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