Requesting FF720p on 3K scarlets

[J Davis]

Hi RED, this may sound like a crazy feature request but is it to late to add an option for FF720p on the 3K scarlets?

My thoughts for this run along the lines of taping readings for features and castings. Sometimes these can be 2 hours of recording in one session. It would be great to avoid the massive file sizes and 720p is still overkill for this use.

Some of you may say I could just do this on a cheaper camera ... but ... I would prefer not to have to own another camera!

EDIT May 31:
I'm getting repeated questions ... sure I want to shoot my short films in 3K RAW just like every other indi filmmaker, and 3K scarlet will be a great tool for indi filmmakers, but having the ability to use it for sketchpad shooting at RGB FF720p or FF420p is not that much extra circuitry over FF1080p (which is on the specs) and it speeds up post time and therefore time away from your actors.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

If think I would probably scale the monitor out and record 720p on my laptop. Wouldn't solve the problem for doing this on the run though.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

The concept behind the RED ONE has been to record RAW with compression (REDCODE), not do in-camera de-bayering and downsampling to other video formats, except a lower-rez 720P RGB monitor output.

I suspect that the 3K Scarlet will be similar, though who knows.

The thing to keep in mind is that a RAW file is a natural form of data compression -- converting the image to color immediately triples the amount of data, so you may find that recording 720P color in the camera to not be significantly less data than 3K RAW. You can think of 720P RGB as being the same amount of data as 3840 x 2160 RAW (i.e. 3X 1280 x 720). So that's actually more data than 3K RAW.

So 720P recording isn't really going to save you anything in terms of recording times or data amounts over 3K RAW. I suppose something like 1.5K RAW using half the 2/3" sensor, basically turning it into a 1/3" camera, would save you some data.

 

[J Davis]

If think I would probably scale the monitor out and record 720p on my laptop. Wouldn't solve the problem for doing this on the run though.

I had thought about that but it would be nice to avoid tapping the HDMI as we all carry around enough gear as it is. While I'm at it, an option to switch to FF 480p would be useful too.

I've noticed actors give a better performance during a casting if they have a mattebox pointed at them. Similarly they might go even harder if the red logo caught the corner of their eye?
Heh heh

 

[David Mullen ASC]

J Davis -- did you read my post above?

 

[J Davis]

So 720P recording isn't really going to save you anything in terms of recording times or data amounts over 3K RAW.

Aye ... you're making me think that I should have re-phrased my question. Its not just the file sizes, its the time in post production as well that is a hang up for this scenario.

My aim would be to get long 2hour+ recordings of full frame image to 720p or 480p (I mean 854x480) to my laptop as quicktime files with the minimum amount of transcoding.

 

[J Davis]

Sorry David, we posted at the same time!

Y'know I can really see directors and filmmakers like myself using these 3K scarlets for all sorts of purposes like this. Sketching out shots, learning to manipulate dof while putting together video storyboards. What a great tool to enable the director to help speak the same language as the DoP.

 

[Steven Swigart]

horse for the course.

Maybe a faster computer would help with your problem.

Computers will keep getting faster, can't wait to see how they will render footage in a few years.

Edit: I find it mildly humorous that you started a thread calling 3k potentially obsolete already, and now you are requesting 720p? Strange, unresolved posts.

 

[J Davis]

Edit: I find it mildly humorous that you started a thread calling 3k potentially obsolete already, and now you are requesting 720p? Strange, unresolved posts.

I had thought that too, but that other thread is more about an unrevealed use for mini primes ... a valid point I believe.

Maybe I am the sole person who sees a use for lower res, transcode free footage from a red scarlet camera?

Or I cough up extra cash for a GH1 and leave red at home when its sketchpad use (such a shame)

 

[David Mullen ASC]

It may be an option, who knows at this point, but just realize what you are asking for, a lot more image processing in the camera to live debayer, downsample, and convert to a standard video format probably with some gamma setting options and probably some standard codec, all for files that may not be much smaller in size than 3K RAW, so probably no gain in recording times. But sure, it may show up as an option, but it's not a simple thing to implement.

Trouble is that when people start wanting standard video out of a camera, they start wanting all the video processing options you get in many cameras.

Besides, if all you want is a video sketchpad, there are some cheap options out there these days. You probably already have a couple of objects lying around the house that record video...

 

[J Davis]

It may be an option, who knows at this point, but just realize what you are asking for, a lot more image processing in the camera to live debayer, downsample, and convert to a standard video format ...

Isn't all that circuitry already implemented in the form of FF1080p ?
Surely 720 is the same thing different setting that sheds more data?

AFAIK the current FF1080p is going to an RGB redcode and if they implement 720 or lower it would do the same. Thus a transcode step is still required unless Apple quicktime soon supports RGB redcode (fairly likely I hope).
@David - correct me if I'm wrong on RGB redcode
@Red - hope you are listening

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Isn't all that circuitry already implemented in the form of FF1080p ?
AFAIK the current FF1080p is going to an RGB redcode

What current RED camera does FF1080P except for on-set playback? You're talking about a camera that hasn't come out yet so how I can know what the specs are or how it is doing it?

 

[Birns and Sawyer]

You can think of 720P RGB as being the same amount of data as 3840 x 2160 RAW (i.e. 3X 1280 x 720).

Just wanted to point out that if you multiply each dimension by 3 (3840x2160) that's actually 9 times the area of 720p.

To get 3x the data you would have the square root of 3 multiplied by each dimension.


Also, the red.com/epic_scarlet posts FF1080p for all cameras through Epix 645

 

[Bing Bailey]

why not just use a small canon for doing casting sessions , hd21 records to harddrive , the quality is great for something like that, you can copy the files to harddrive , while red is a swiss army knife in many ways its not the best solution for everything.

use the right tool to make what your doing easier. the us spent millions figuring out how to use pens in space , the russians just used pencils , problem solved

 

[J Davis]

What current RED camera does FF1080P except for on-set playback? You're talking about a camera that hasn't come out yet so how I can know what the specs are or how it is doing it?

My bad phrasing again! What I meant was
'Currently the projected specs for Scarlet are FF1080p output as RGB redcode'.

When I said for you to correct me – it was in reference to statements from Jim or RED confirming within the camera debayering and the existence of RGB redcode for scarlet. For life of me I can't find Jims post where he mentioned it and I look to you as someone much more knowledgeable than myself.

Assuming my memory is correct, the debayering ASIC is already planned for these brains so a FF720p or FF480p would not be that much extra work.

The potential on the back end is huge, especially if future quicktime versions support rgb redcode. ie no transcode ... straight from CF card to iPhone if need be ...




EDIT: @ Bing

why not just use a small canon for doing casting sessions , hd21 records to harddrive , the quality is great for something like that, you can copy the files to harddrive , while red is a swiss army knife in many ways its not the best solution for everything.

I would do this and buy a GH1 (480p mpeg as per dpreview) but my original point was so that I would not have to own two cameras (see my posts on first page). I hope I am not alone in seeing the usefulness of this request.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Just wanted to point out that if you multiply each dimension by 3 (3840x2160) that's actually 9 times the area of 720p.

To get 3x the data you would have the square root of 3 multiplied by each dimension.

I'm not sure why I would multiply 3840 x 2160 by three. My point is that 720P RGB is 1280 x 720 x3, i.e. 3840 x 2160, or 8.3 MP, which is probably more data to record than 3K RAW would be (probably 3072 x 1728, aka 5.3MP.) Not sure why I would times it by three again.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, if FF1080P RGB is on the specs list, it's certainly possible that 720P and 480P would be offered as well, but there may still be some post conversion work necessary to create normal 720P broadcast video.

 

[Birns and Sawyer]

My wording was probably poor. I was saying that three times the area of 1280 x 720 is not 3840 x 2160. Three times the area of 1280 x 720 is either 3840 x 720 or 1280 x 2160. '3840 x 2160' is actually 9 times the area of 1280 x 720.

If you multiply both dimensions by 3, your multiplying the whole image by 9.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Sorry, you're right! I scaled it wrong. I should have multiplied 1280 x 720, then multiplied that by three -- I would have gotten 2.7MP worth of data, which is smaller than 5.3MP (3K RAW). Or I could have multiplied only one dimension by three, not both.

 

[David Rasberry]

By the time Scarlet is released you should be able to drop Redcode raw files directly to the timeline in both Vegas and Adobe CS4 and cut in real time for the screen tests. No transcoding required for edit suite viewing.